Freethought & Rationalism Archive

storytime · 11-05-2009, 08:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Quote:

Originally Posted by storytime

Why were the Jewish leaders envious of Jesus? They said to one another that Jesus was drawing all the Jewish people to himself. Did the Jewish leaders then fear losing their place of authority at Jerusalem should Caesar catch wind of the popularity of Jesus? Might Caesar replace the Pharisees and Sadducees with Jesus as 'king of the Jews'? Did these men in power keep the truth of scriptures from the Jewish people? If so, what truth? Why were so many Jews believing Jesus?

The Jewish crowd declared "we have a law". Meaning what law? The law against blasphemy(speaking against God) which carried the death penalty?

The Jewish crowd declared "we have no king but Caesar". Meaning what? Were the Jews simply pacifying the reality in knowing they were subject to Caesars power and therewith showing loyalty to Rome?

Jesus evidently interpreted his Jewish scriptures differently than the existing Jewish leadership. The interpretation of Jesus would have the Pharisees(sons of the devil) cast out
and the legitimate(as Jesus saw it) re-established.

But, Pilate dismissed all the accusations, even ENVY, as soon as it was declared that he found no fault in Jesus.

Speculations about the reason for ENVY is irrelevant once Pilate did not find Jesus guilty of any wrongdoing.

The accusations against Jesus were, in effect, all false.

Yes, but.. just because Pilate found no fault in Jesus against Rome, that doesn't mean that the Jews let Jesus off the hook. The story says the Jews employed two men(?) for the purpose of making false statements (as truth) against Jesus. One statement focused on Jesus saying: "tear down this temple and in three days I shall raise it up again". Another was when the Pharisees first decided to stone Jesus for his declaring himself the son of God. One is judged as sedition, one as blasphemy.

storytime · 11-05-2009, 08:27 PM

Herod is one freaky character. The scenerio has Herod in fear of John the Baptist. Why? Probably because John knew the scriptures in Jewish Law: "Thou shalt not have thy brothers wife while thy brother is yet alive". Philip, the brother in Judaism, was probably playing around with other women while Herod was screwing around with his wife and maybe even his daughter. It was a Jewish thing on one interpretation, but not on the other. Both John and Jesus seemed to believe in marriage until death do ye part. While other Jews believed in a bill of divorcement in providing a way to have multiple wives. Anyways, Herodius didn't like being shamed by John the Baptist and contrived to have his head. Herod feels guilty about it but must make good on his promise to Herodius. So off went John's head.

Herod executed an innocent man in beheading John according to the rule of Gods Law. But the Jews were accustomed to the law of Moses and multiple wives. When Jesus told the Pharisees: "ye teach for doctrine the commandments of men", he was showing the division of Jews which already existed in interpretation of scriptures. Of course the Pharisees would not have liked this interruption of their power as leading authority figures in Jersualem. Jesus became a threat to their existence. They wanted him dead, for as Jesus told them, "a kingdom divided cannot stand but has an end". Jesus expected an end of the Pharisee world. Not an end of the whole world at large.

aa5874 · 11-05-2009, 09:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by storytime

Herod is one freaky character. The scenerio has Herod in fear of John the Baptist. Why? Probably because John knew the scriptures in Jewish Law: "Thou shalt not have thy brothers wife while thy brother is yet alive". Philip, the brother in Judaism, was probably playing around with other women while Herod was screwing around with his wife and maybe even his daughter. It was a Jewish thing on one interpretation, but not on the other. Both John and Jesus seemed to believe in marriage until death do ye part. While other Jews believed in a bill of divorcement in providing a way to have multiple wives. Anyways, Herodius didn't like being shamed by John the Baptist and contrived to have his head. Herod feels guilty about it but must make good on his promise to Herodius. So off went John's head.

Herod executed an innocent man in beheading John according to the rule of Gods Law. But the Jews were accustomed to the law of Moses and multiple wives. When Jesus told the Pharisees: "ye teach for doctrine the commandments of men", he was showing the division of Jews which already existed in interpretation of scriptures. Of course the Pharisees would not have liked this interruption of their power as leading authority figures in Jersualem. Jesus became a threat to their existence. They wanted him dead, for as Jesus told them, "a kingdom divided cannot stand but has an end". Jesus expected an end of the Pharisee world. Not an end of the whole world at large.

The Jesus story is just fundamentally implausible. Based on Josephus, Jesus of the NT could have been beaten to a pulp and declared a madman, or even attacked and killed by Roman soldiers.

The false prophet and his followers, in Josephus, were attacked by Roman soldiers without a trial, and many were killed and wounded. The false prophet managed to escape.

wavy_wonder1 · 11-05-2009, 09:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jgoodguy

Quote:

Originally Posted by bacht

Right, if you consider greater Palestine including Syria then the Romans would be very interested in securing territory so close to the Parthians in the Euphrates and Tigris basins. In pre-exilic times I believe there was a major trade route along the coast up to Phoenicia as well as inland routes following the Jordan system up to Damascus.

The importance would be trade routes and invasion routes for several thousand years. It is the land route from Africa and Asia Minor to Europe. Whoever controls it controls the trade and has a military advantage. That does not make it a cultural or an economic powerhouse when the control is Rome, Egypt or other external power.

Exactly, it was just a transit corridor that was haplessly situated throughout history between successive superpowers on either end. On this I would suggest Donald B. Reford, Egypt, Canaan, and Israel in Ancient Times (or via: amazon.co.uk).

Finis,
ELB

Clivedurdle · 11-06-2009, 01:25 AM

And all this stuff about intrigues with wives, killing people you don't agree with, this fictional Herod in contrast to the one who actually built the largest temple on the planet but was somehow afraid of a prophet, is very like Shakespeare's treatment of Macbeth.

Maybe all there is to recover are characters in stories.

Solo · 11-06-2009, 04:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

And all this stuff about intrigues with wives, killing people you don't agree with, this fictional Herod in contrast to the one who actually built the largest temple on the planet but was somehow afraid of a prophet, is very like Shakespeare's treatment of Macbeth.

Maybe all there is to recover are characters in stories.

Before making big conclusions, Clive, the person talked about here is Herod Antipas, not Herod the Great.

Jiri

bacht · 11-06-2009, 07:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by storytime

The temple leaders didn't have a monopoly on scripture? That's really hard to believe considering how the strictness of Jewish law would have put fear in people. Speculating on what the situation would have been in those days, I can see the temple leaders keeping their little secrets of scriptures that they thought the regular lay people did not need to know. And lay people listened because they were not allowed to speak, being they were ignorant due to lack of education in the scriptures. Besides, God appointed priests to be teachers, so the ignorant lay people could follow their instructions. Isn't that the way the OT shows how the governance of the people was established, in the head as priests and tail as the lay people?

Maybe the Judean Jewish artistocrats were not so much desiring control among their diverse people of Israel, but instead desired to hold onto Jerusalem as the place where all Jews should come once a year to worship God. Something about this Jerusalem devotion is mentioned as "and if Jews would not come up from Egypt, they would receive no rain."

Herod executed John. Why would he not have executed Jesus? Herod had the ways and means at his disposal, so that is why Pilate threw Jesus to the dogs, so to speak. And, I see no reason why Rome would have interferred with Jewish religious law. Jesus was, after all, condemned by his Jewish brethren, not by Romans.

Judea was a small and poor nation. The NT mentions famine in the mid-1st C. It was probably like Mecca today, a place of pilgrimmage for diaspora Jews, dependent to some degree on "tourists" for revenue.

Rome had an arrangement with Herod the Great, and they allowed him to maintain Jewish customs in his realm. After his son Archelaus was removed the Romans installed their own officials who generally ignored Jewish traditions unless they caused trouble, such as disturbances on feast days. If a person like Jesus had threatened violence in the temple the Jewish authorities would naturally be concerned, both for the sake of the sanctuary and to avoid Roman retribution.

The temple leaders were mainly concerned with sacrificial ritual, it was the Pharisees and synagogues who tried to spread ethical teachings to the masses. Only scholars could still understand Hebrew, so translation and interpretation were necessary for the laity. There were also the intertestamental books like Enoch, Jubilees etc for those who preferred esoteric eschatology.

Clivedurdle · 11-06-2009, 07:22 AM

Quote:

Before making big conclusions, Clive, the person talked about here is Herod Antipas, not Herod the Great.

what is that saying about putting brain in gear...

Clivedurdle · 11-06-2009, 07:27 AM

And Judaism was probably a broader church than it is now.

Very Greek "modern" Jews, Various forms of scholars, Pharisees into the spirit of the law, Sadducees into tradition, Temple sacrificial priests, Essenes, Egyptian, Spanish, Roman, Tarsun Jews.

storytime · 11-06-2009, 07:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

Quote:

Before making big conclusions, Clive, the person talked about here is Herod Antipas, not Herod the Great.

what is that saying about putting brain in gear...

hee hee... I am the worst for confusing the Herodian family. But I think they were all serial killers.

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11-05-2009, 08:27 PM	#112
storytime Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: USA Posts: 2,608	Herod is one freaky character. The scenerio has Herod in fear of John the Baptist. Why? Probably because John knew the scriptures in Jewish Law: "Thou shalt not have thy brothers wife while thy brother is yet alive". Philip, the brother in Judaism, was probably playing around with other women while Herod was screwing around with his wife and maybe even his daughter. It was a Jewish thing on one interpretation, but not on the other. Both John and Jesus seemed to believe in marriage until death do ye part. While other Jews believed in a bill of divorcement in providing a way to have multiple wives. Anyways, Herodius didn't like being shamed by John the Baptist and contrived to have his head. Herod feels guilty about it but must make good on his promise to Herodius. So off went John's head. Herod executed an innocent man in beheading John according to the rule of Gods Law. But the Jews were accustomed to the law of Moses and multiple wives. When Jesus told the Pharisees: "ye teach for doctrine the commandments of men", he was showing the division of Jews which already existed in interpretation of scriptures. Of course the Pharisees would not have liked this interruption of their power as leading authority figures in Jersualem. Jesus became a threat to their existence. They wanted him dead, for as Jesus told them, "a kingdom divided cannot stand but has an end". Jesus expected an end of the Pharisee world. Not an end of the whole world at large.

11-06-2009, 01:25 AM	#115
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	And all this stuff about intrigues with wives, killing people you don't agree with, this fictional Herod in contrast to the one who actually built the largest temple on the planet but was somehow afraid of a prophet, is very like Shakespeare's treatment of Macbeth. Maybe all there is to recover are characters in stories.

11-06-2009, 07:27 AM	#119
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	And Judaism was probably a broader church than it is now. Very Greek "modern" Jews, Various forms of scholars, Pharisees into the spirit of the law, Sadducees into tradition, Temple sacrificial priests, Essenes, Egyptian, Spanish, Roman, Tarsun Jews.

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