LP675

What! weren’t you satisfied with my reply?

4- The story is entirely accurate history, this couple lied to God and were struck dead supernaturally.
I don’t share you worldview of metaphysical naturalism.

Jesus said in Matt16:18 “ I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.�
He can’t have been that bad an egg.
But of course this was just a story Peter himself concocted! No doubt to bolster his authority in the church and solidify his iron grip on the trembling Christian community!
(Yes, This is sarcasm)

Magdlyn

The Greek is,

"I tell you that you are a pebble (cephas). On this rock (cephos) [referring back to previous verses, ie: kingdom of god] I will build my church."

I suggest this verse has been mis-translated into English to put a so-so disciple into the best light.

Then again, why would Jesus, a devout Jew, say he was intending to build a "church?" This is obviously written from a much later perspective in time, and is not historical.

Following refs in chapter to binding and loosing, typical rabbispeak.

Baidarka

Of course there are contradictions in the text. But you can not simply cover up one statement with another.

Did Peter deny Jesus?

Did Paul say that Peter was a no good hypocrite or not?

How do you reconcile the bad Peter with the good Peter?

Was he a pebble or a rock?

Baidarka

I strongly suspect that the Ugandan doomsday cult story is a modern repeat of the Ananias and Sapphira episode

gravitybow

The conclusion of the Ananias/Sapphira episode:

Why should this be the case? Weren't two wrongdoers removed from an honest, obedient congregation? Wouldn't the congregation applaud such actions? Why doesn't the conclusion read, "Great rejoicing seized the whole congregation"? What do honest folk have to be fearful of, knowing that God is on their side and takes care of liars? Why is the WHOLE congregation --every single person--- seized with fear? Are they all thinking about cheating? And why would "all who heard about these events" be seized with great fear? Doesn't ALL include unbelievers who hear the story?

This hyperbolic conclusion smacks of coercion. If an honest congregation is shaken with great fear, members may be more likely to contribute a little extra to the kitty to avoid even the remotest accusation of lying or cheating. ("See? I have given more than the Lord has asked.") Same with future congregations as the story is retold.

Fear = mo'money, mo' money, mo' money!

LP675

Summary of discussion:
-Silly assertions were made regarding Ananias and Sapphira, and the reasons for their deaths (i.e. they didn’t add enough to the churches profit)
-I demonstrated they were killed for lying about what they gave
-Suggestions were made that the book of acts is not historically reliable, and the bible was pooh poohed.
- I pooh poohed suggestions that ‘Peter and his goons’ were involved in some horrible murder and conspiracy.

If that about wraps it up I think I will call it a day. It’s been fun guys.

P.S. Magdlyn I will have to ask you about the florist game sometime, an acquaintance of mine does it, and I find it fascinating.

gravitybow

Oh, I see. There's no good explanation for the irrational "great fear" generated by deaths of two cheating liars, so it's time to skedaddle.

Bye, then.

LP675

Oops I spoke too soon!(you posted while I was typing)
There is an interesting parallel in 2 Samuel 6 which I spoke of earlier that is somewhat analogous; v 9 “David was afraid of the LORD that day�. Although the LORD is good, and “God is love�, he is also “a consuming fire�. A healthy respect for God is indispensable for continued prosperous existence. Even though the Christian community might not have committed the same transgression, and in that sense were ‘honest folk’, it seems a healthy fear of God seized them. They realized they weren’t interacting with just anyone, but the supreme ruler of the universe. Its like a healthy respect of cops, even when you haven’t done anything wrong, when you are around them you still might feel uneasy in some sense, because you know you could do something wrong, and there are consequences for it.

I didn’t realize how often the fear of the Lord was extolled in the bible. This thread has been profitable in that respect;
2 Chron 19:7 Now let the fear of the LORD be upon you.
"You must serve faithfully and wholeheartedly in the fear of the LORD.
Job 28:28 'The fear of the Lord--that is wisdom, and to shun evil is understanding.'"
Psalm 19: 9 The fear of the LORD is pure, enduring forever. The ordinances of the LORD are sure and altogether righteous.
Psalm 34:11 Come, my children, listen to me; I will teach you the fear of the LORD.
Psalm 111: 10 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom; all who follow his precepts have good understanding.
Prov 1:7 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge, but fools despise wisdom and discipline.
(and many more)

And Even Jesus had a fear of the LORD! Isa11:1-3 “A shoot will come up from the stump of Jesse; from his roots a Branch will bear fruit. The Spirit of the LORD will rest on him-- the Spirit of wisdom and of understanding, the Spirit of counsel and of power, the Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD-- and he will delight in the fear of the LORD.�

As I mentioned before, such a tactic might have backfired against Peter, because This story might have actually served to dissuade people from having anything to do with the dangerous business of making offerings to the Christian community in the form of proceeds of the sale of land. Peter certainly said they were under no obligation to give anything, and once they sold the land the money was theirs to do with as they pleased. They attempted to give some of it, though under no obligation and were struck dead. I don’t know about you, but I might be tempted to steer clear of the whole offering business, it seems fairly hazardous, especially since there was no obligation to do it.

gravitybow

A deity that's afraid of himself? Hmmm, I like it!

Magdlyn

Now you're talking LP. I was starting to despair you would ever break out of sarcasm and get a little honest and straighforward.

Seems the fear talk has put a little starch in your shorts.

Maybe a sensible person would not just steer clear of offering proceeds from land, or any other tithe, but just skedaddle back to Artemis altogether.