EnterTheBowser

Alright... so your basic argument is that suffering is necessary to develop Godly love.

You have in no way responded to my point; in fact you have confirmed it. "...if there was one [a way to achieve Godly love w/o the intense suffering we observe] He [God] would have done it." This begs the question - you're assuming that God exists in order to show that there is no other way that involves less suffering. You need to show that developing Godly love is NOT POSSIBLE in ANY way without the INCREDIBLE suffering that we observe in life.

I'd also like to point out that you missed Pervy's point as well - he was not trying to give an instance of suffering. He was pointing out that the behavior you ascribe to God is in no way compatible with any reasonable definition of "love."

John A. Broussard

You are confusing divine love with earthly love. They are very different.

When god drowns humankind (except for Utnapishtim) it's an expression of god's love. Malaria, leprosy, ebola, polio, famine, earthquakes, etc., are just the way god has of showing how much it loves us.

It's kind of like the view that a husband doesn't love his wife unless he beats her up once in a while. It shows her he's around and looking after her.

If it weren't for human suffering, we might begin to think that god doesn't exist.

bling

Yes, for humans on earth.

That is right for, God had to for humans.

God exist (in the case of humans) to do all God can do to help humans develop Godly love. Suffering allowed by God are specific opportunities for individuals to allow God to work through them to relieve the suffering. There is a lot of suffering going on and there are a lot of people and there are a lot of people not responding yet. Some more may respond if things get worse or closer to their comfort zone.

That is a great question. Most Christian want to say suffering is the result of evil people, Satan, Adam & Eve, Sin, God not being powerful enough, or random allowance. I have to use a lot of scripture to try and convince them of the problems with their answer and the logic of my answer. This question will take time and you may have to be more specific. Not possible would suggest going through all other possibilities, which will not be possible.
1. Godly love is not the strong wonderful loves of parent/ child, husband/ wife, family members, or really close friends. It is a sacrificial love, a love requiring deep thought out decision making, expectation of nothing needed in return for the love shown, and originating from a love for God and all He loves, only. (An extremely unique love).
2. Suffering, I am equating to needy people and I am saying Godly love requires worthy beings (beings God deeply loves) to be served.
3. God is always serving good people and potentially good people, with their desire to achieve Godly type love.
4. God, who is the ultimate in love, must be serving needy others.
5. The story (you do not have to believe it was real) about Adam and Eve shows that given everything and having no needy people around for Adam and Eve to help, will result in them lacking Godly love and sinning.
6. It is one of those things everyone can try. All you do is find one of the multitude of suffering people and you sacrifice something you personal give up precious time, without any expectation or desiring of receiving anything in return. Do it because the creator loves you, and you are really wanting to do stuff for those He loves. That love (no matter how small) will grow and you will seek other opportunities.
7. There are lots of people in the world that have not developed Godly love, so there are lots of opportunities.

Yes it is. Godly love means sacrificing stuff you don’t want to give up, but will give up for the good of others. God allowed His Son to willingly suffer for people (God’s unruly bad kids), so they could have the possibility of developing Godly love.
There are very few things God can sacrificially, give up, since He has everything, but He can unwillingly give up the painless living of some of His innocent children, so Godly love might be developed in those that suffer, those that are willing to participate in the serving of the suffering people and even those that see the helping and contribute it to God. These opportunities are for specific people that can either except the opportunity or neglect the opportunity. Those opportunities given to an individual that are rejected by the individual, upset God (you do not want to up set God, because eventually Justice comes into play, which is still a product of God’s love.) Suffering is temporary and those experiencing are doing it to help themselves and others experience Godly love. The really sad part for everyone is when the opportunity is presented and everyone rejects it and then it has the result of emphasizing the need and showing who the non lovers are.

bling

I think you are being sarcastic, you need to read what I wrote EnterTheBowser. The only thing I did not address is death. Death is not bad in and of itself it is the way good people get to be close to God eternally, and the way bad people quit doing bad stuff.
This world has been set up for you to develop Godly love. The suffering is for your sac and not for God’s sac.

John A. Broussard

Got it.

When a day-old baby is dying of dysentery and lingers for a week in screaming agony, this is a way for the baby to develop godly love. The suffering is for the baby's sake and not for god's sake. The more suffering the better, since god enjoys watching the baby suffer.

That makes a lot of sense.

EnterTheBowser

(emphasis mine)

I hope you understand that if you admit that you cannot show that IMMENSE SUFERING is logically inseperable from developing "godly love," then the obvious conclusion is that there is some way to achieve godly love without suffering; and God being all-powerful could have chosen that way; since God didn't we can conclude that a loving God does not exist. Your statement (in bold) proves my point.

EnterTheBowser

I think I'll also add a "witty remark" or "sarcastic comment:"

If, in fact, the best thing for a person is for them to develop Godly love, and if suffering is either necessary for this development, or if suffering contributes strongly to this development, then a truly unselfish person would go about inflicting suffering upon others - to help them develop Godly love. A truly unselfish person would give up their place in Heaven so that others who wouldn't otherwise end up there could.

And somehow the conclusion that the moral person ought to torture others seems rather strange, at least to me :devil3: .

John A. Broussard

And just think how much god gloats over the billions and billions who are and will be burning in hell forever and ever and ever and ever.

It's enough to make god drool at the prospect.

bling

New born pain, is still a mystery. The abortionist has strong research to show the fetus does not experience pain, at least as we know it. Part of that research includes the study of newborns. Newborns in child birth go through suffer trauma, experiencing broken bones sometimes, yet they will cry more over a late feeding, and can be comforted by being held in your arms. A lot more in child pain research needs to be done. The adults (parents) seem to go through a lot more suffering. Have you had any personal experience in this area? God has done a lot in the way of helping humans deal with pain: they go into shock or often don’t remember if there was any pain.
My worst experience working with young people who have gone through major accidents was: one very poor 9 year old Cub Scout in my troop hit by a truck thrown 30 ft., black and blue, broken, in traction and I could hardly recognize him. I was taking a turn reading him a book, when I did something stupid and he started laughing even when it pained him more, we laughed and cried together. He still has problems walking and one arm is messed up, but he is really great with the other kids in the hospital. Two others paraplegic and tell me they think it was better for them as a result of the accidents. There parents don’t feel that way and I seem to spend more time with care givers problems, then those being cared for.
We come from two different worlds, try mine for a while, it is very different. It hurts me that there is so much pain in this world, but I can find so much joy and happiness in working with the needy. There are plenty of needy, we need no more and if all good people are out experiencing God’s love then there will not be a need to increase the needy. The concept is easy to grasp if your involved.
Explaining, this stuff to you guys is not really easy, because we are so different. The answer is: you have people around you needing help try helping without any expectations, you may just like it and the people you help may start having some joy. God bless you in your research.

bling

Since there is a God and there is suffering and we know God does not like suffering and we know suffering at least helps the development of Godly type love for some human, then suffering must be required for developing Godly love in at least some humans. I can personally realize the results of suffering in my own life, and know what I witnessed in others lives and Godly love has developed when allowed to develop by the individual.