mountainman

Why are there Three Different "Acts of Pilate" in the Theory Space of "Early Christian Origins"?

WIKI

Does anyone know the answer to this mystery?
We may disregard the forgeries of Tertullian and Justin in this matter.
That leaves two other "Acts of Pilate".
Both from the early 4th century !!

Mainstream is adamant that the "Acts of Pilate" in our possession is "Christian".
And that the "Acts of Pilate" referred to by Eusebius is "destroyed" and "Pagan".

What if the Acts of Pilate in our possession is the "Pagan One"?
And the Christian minded academics cannot see the "Pagan Invectives"?
The political and historical context is in the rule of Constantine despite Eusebius's assertions.
The reason that Eusebius calls it "blasphemous" is perhaps because it was written purposefully to compete with the canon.

There was a huge controversy over the beginnings of the "Christian State Religion".
And the controversy has been buried by the orthodox 4th and 5th century preservers of history.
The name of the massive controversy was the Arian controversy - after Arius of Alexandria.

It seems possible that the Arian controversy was not about the theology of Jesus but the historicity of Jesus.

Extracts from "Acts of Pilate" (M.R. James translation)

(4.1) Opening prologue with specific fifth century date of 425 CE

MEMORIALS OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST
DONE IN THE TIME OF PONTIUS PILATE
Prologue - (Absent from some manuscripts and versions).

I Ananias (Aeneas Copt., Emaus Lat.), the Protector, of praetorian rank,
learned in the law, did from the divine scriptures recognize our Lord Jesus Christ
and came near to him by faith and was accounted worthy of holy baptism:
and I sought out the memorials that were made at that season
in the time of our master Jesus Christ, which the Jews deposited with Pontius Pilate,
and found the memorials in Hebrew (letters), and by the good pleasure of God
I translated them into Greek (letters) for the informing of all them
that call upon the name of our Lord Jesus Christ:
in the reign of our Lord Flavius Theodosius, in the seventeenth year,
and of Flavius Valentinianus the sixth, in the ninth indiction

[corrupt: Lat. has the eighteenth year of Theodosius,
when Valentinian was proclaimed Augustus, i.e. 425 CE].

All ye therefore that read this and translate (or copy) it into other books,
remember me and pray for me that God will be gracious unto me
and be merciful unto my sins which I have sinned against him.

Peace be to them that read and that hear these things and to their servants. Amen.



(4.2) Pilate informs Jews that Jesus heals by the god Asclepius ...

Pilate saith: And what things are they that he doeth, and would destroy the law?
The Jews say: We have a law that we should not heal any man on the sabbath:
but this man of his evil deeds hath healed the lame and the bent,
the withered and the blind and the paralytic, the dumb
and them that were possessed, on the sabbath day!

Pilate saith unto them: By what evil deeds?

They say unto him: He is a sorcerer, and by Beelzebub the prince of the devils
he casteth out devils, and they are all subject unto him.

Pilate saith unto them: This is not to cast out devils by an unclean spirit, but by the god Asclepius.


(4.3) The Mentions of "Karinus and Leucius"



XVII, 3 (Karinus and Leucius start writing)

And when Karinus and Leucius heard this adjuration,
they trembled in their body and groaned, being troubled in heart.
And looking up together unto heaven they made the seal of the cross
with their fingers upon their tongues, and forthwith they spake
both of them, saying:

Give us each a volume of paper, and let us
write that which we have seen and heard.

And they gave them unto them, and each of them sat down and wrote



XXVII (Karinus and Leucius asked not to relate mysteries of god head)

These are the divine and holy mysteries which we saw and heard,
even I, Karinus, and Leucius: but we were not suffered to relate
further the rest of the mysteries of God, according as Michael
the archangel strictly charged us, saying:

Ye shall go with your brethren unto Jerusalem and remain in prayer,
crying out and glorifying the resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ,
who hath raised you from the dead together with him:
and ye shall not be speaking with any man, but sit as dumb men,
until the hour come when the Lord himself suffereth you
to declare the mysteries of his god head.



XXVII (Karinus and Leucius finish writing; equal writings)

And when they had finished writing all things
in the several volumes of paper they arose;
and Karinus gave that which he had written
into the hands of Annas and Caiaphas and Gamaliel;
likewise Leucius gave that which he had written
into the hands of Nicodemus and Joseph.

And suddenly they were transfigured and became
white exceedingly and were no more seen.
But their writings were found to be the same (lit. equal),
neither more nor less by one letter.

And when all the synagogue of the Jews heard
all these marvelous sayings of Karinus and Leucius,
they said one to another:

Of a truth all these things were wrought by the Lord,
and blessed be the Lord, world without end, Amen.

And they went out all of them in great trouble of mind,
smiting their breasts with fear and trembling,
and departed every man unto his own home.

And all these things which were spoken by the Jews in their synagogue,
did Joseph and Nicodemus forthwith declare unto the governor.
And Pilate himself wrote all the things that were done and said
concerning Jesus by the Jews, and laid up all the words
in the public books of his judgement hall (praetorium).

4.5 (Introducing "Dysmas" and "Gestas")

"And let "Dysmas" and "Gestas", the two malefactors, be crucified with you."

This is the first text to give the two malefactors who were crucified
to the right and the left of Jesus the personal names which would now
be theirs in the tradition of Christian piety.

J-D

In what way would the existence of different books with the same title be a 'mystery'?

mountainman

I am suggesting a simplification of how the evidence in our possession may be understood. The argument attempts to simplify the evidence in our possession by conjecturing that there may have only ever been the one book called "The Acts of Pilate", which was reviewed by Eusebius and classified as "Pagan blasphemy".

Mainstream opinion currently suggests that there was this "Pagan version" commented upon by Eusebius, and another - a second - "Christian version" which was written sometime afterwards (in the early 4th century) as a "reaction to the Pagan Version".

If we look at and examine the text of the extant "Acts of Pilate", there are a number of features (which I posted above) by which we might argue that the work was in fact authored by a "Pagan Author" --- in fact someone who wishes to promote the idea that Jesus healed by the power of Asclepius.

In other words, the text in our possession may in fact not be a third and later "Christian version" of the "Earlier Pagan Acts of Pilate" which horrified Eusebius because of its blashemous comments, but in fact the original "Pagan version" --- and that there is not in fact any second "Christian Acts of Pilate".

The possibility that multiple books -- thought by most people (at the moment) to be different -- turn out to be just the one book. This is similar to a mystery and its solution, or an unnecessary complexity and its simplification.

J-D

In what way is it similar to a mystery?

mountainman

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/mystery

1. One that is not fully understood or that baffles or eludes the understanding; an enigma:
2. One whose identity is unknown and who arouses curiosity:

The claim is that the mainstream situation with the conjectural existence of two separate books represents a complexity which is not fully understood or that baffles or eludes the understanding; is an enigma. Or a mystery.

The mystery may be solved by perceiving that there was only ever one book, and a second conjectural "Christian version" which is hypothecised by modern academics is not required. That the text in our possession was the "Pagan Version" described by Eusebius, and that Eusebius characterized it as "blasphemous" because it matter-of-factly demoted the role of Jesus.

J-D

There's nothing in the least baffling about the idea of two separate books with the same title. That happens all the time.

mountainman

It is not the idea that is baffling - it is the evidence itself that may be perceived as baffling. Do you happen to know what evidence exists for the two separate conjecturally existent 4th century "Acts of Pilate"?

My impression is that you dont have any idea of how the evidence has been described by the mainstream academic commentaries on this book - and that you have done absolutely no "homework" on the details in question here at all. Would I be correct in this impression?

J-D

I've studied logic and I can recognise illogic when I see it. For all I know there may only have been one book called 'Acts of Pilate', and I don't much care either way, but I know that the concept of two separate books with the same title is not baffling. If there's some aspect of this question which is baffling, what is it?

mountainman

Cool.

mountainman

I just finished reading his book. Its very dry. Rowan Williams is a churchman and cannot seem to contemplate a time when the church was not. Naturally he paints Arius as a "churchman". But there are a few interesting issues the author covers in relation to the Platonic philosophy (via Porphyry via Plotinus) of Arius.

Constantine flatly calls Arius a "Porphyrian"

I wonder what Constantine meant by that?

Constantine also states that Arius "fully and insatiably used base fame".

I wonder what Constantine meant by that as well.