Freethought & Rationalism Archive

manimal2878 · 12-21-2005, 03:15 AM

just bought this.

Discovered in 1945 in the nag hammidi books by some dude, the dead sea scrolls and all that.

So far haven't read much but it seems to be more that Jesus is like buddha than the modern xtian Jesus.

What do you guys think of Thomas? Of course FUndy Xtians say it isn't real, But do you think it is authentically Jesus teachings?

premjan · 12-21-2005, 03:45 AM

It is part of gnostic christianity, like manichaeism. As it is quite possible Jesus was not a real person, chances are this gospel is as good as the rest.

manimal2878 · 12-21-2005, 05:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by premjan

It is part of gnostic christianity, like manichaeism. As it is quite possible Jesus was not a real person, chances are this gospel is as good as the rest.

The forward and intro make a big deal that it is not part of the gnostic tradition.

premjan · 12-21-2005, 05:48 AM

It is not definite that Thomas was not a gnostic, or the first gnostic.

Clivedurdle · 12-21-2005, 09:46 AM

Quote:

Editorial Reviews
Amazon.com
Shortly after Elaine Pagels’ two-and-half-year-old son was diagnosed with a rare lung disease, the religion professor found herself drawn to a Christian church again for the first time in many years. In "Beyond Belief: The Secret Gospel of Thomas" Pagels, best know for her National Book Award-winning The Gnostic Gospels, wrestles with her own faith as she struggles to understand when--and why--Christianity became associated almost exclusively with the ideas codified in the fourth-century Nicene Creed and in the canonical texts of the New Testament. In her exploration, she uncovers the richness and diversity of Christian philosophy that has only become available since the discovery of the Nag Hammadi texts.
At the center of Beyond Belief is what Pagels identifies as a textual battle between The Gospel of Thomas (rediscovered in Egypt in 1945) and The Gospel of John. While these gospels have many superficial similarities, Pagels demonstrates that John, unlike Thomas, declares that Jesus is equivalent to "God the Father" as identified in the Old Testament. Thomas, in contrast, shares with other supposed secret teachings a belief that Jesus is not God but, rather, is a teacher who seeks to uncover the divine light in all human beings. Pagels then shows how the Gospel of John was used by Bishop Irenaeus of Lyon and others to define orthodoxy during the second and third centuries. The secret teachings were literally driven underground, disappearing until the Twentieth Century. As Pagels argues this process "not only impoverished the churches that remained but also impoverished those [Irenaeus] expelled."

Beyond Belief offers a profound framework with which to examine Christian history and contemporary Christian faith, and Pagels renders her scholarship in a highly readable narrative. The one deficiency in Pagels’ examination of Thomas, if there is one, is that she never fully returns in the end to her own struggles with religion that so poignantly open the book. How has the mysticism of the Gnostic Gospels affected her? While she hints that she and others have found new pathways to faith through Thomas, the impact of Pagels’ work on contemporary Christianity may not be understood for years to come. --Patrick O’Kelley

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/AS...ternetinfidels

Diogenes the Cynic · 12-21-2005, 10:12 AM

Although Thomas may have been used by Gnostics, I don't believe it is Gnostic, at least not in its first layer (no archons, no sense of the world as evil). It's certainly a very fascinating collection of sayings, but I would argue that its teachings are sapiential and that Jesus is a wisdom teacher rather than a God figure or even a Messiah. It's notable that Thomas makes no claims for miracles and especially notable that it makes no mention of the crucifixion or resurrection. I think that means it might be quite early and independent of the synoptics. It may even reflect an authentic HJ sayings tradition.

premjan · 12-21-2005, 10:38 AM

Everything about Jesus is perfectly believable, even more so if the Gospel of Thomas is a real compendium of Jesus sayings.

The only parts about Jesus that make him science fiction are the miracles, such as virgin birth, resurrection etc. Once this element is introduced, and insisted upon, there is no alternative to completely rejecting Jesus as a historical figure.

robto · 12-21-2005, 12:19 PM

The Five Gospels
The Five Gospels gives scholarly opinion on which sayings might be authentic Jesus or at least old tradition.

It's a fascinating text and, regardless of whether it's Gnostic or not, shows that there were Christians who had a very different interpretation of who Jesus was than the interpretation that eventually became the "orthodox" view.

Djugashvillain · 12-21-2005, 02:29 PM

Quote:

The only parts about Jesus that make him science fiction are the miracles, such as virgin birth, resurrection etc. Once this element is introduced, and insisted upon, there is no alternative to completely rejecting Jesus as a historical figure.

I take a slight issue here: the presence of fantastical elements rejects only the fantastical elements themselves as non-historical. Extra elements apart may still be found to be historical. However, the existence of the fantastic throws these into great doubt, but doesn't completely reject them.

Vorkosigan · 12-21-2005, 03:09 PM

Quote:

The only parts about Jesus that make him science fiction are the miracles, such as virgin birth, resurrection etc. Once this element is introduced, and insisted upon, there is no alternative to completely rejecting Jesus as a historical figure.

Not true, because many of the events of Jesus' life are taken from the Old Testament and are probably fictional. Hence the suspicion.

12-21-2005, 03:15 AM	#1
manimal2878 Junior Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Jacksonville, FL Posts: 72	Gospel of Thomas just bought this. Discovered in 1945 in the nag hammidi books by some dude, the dead sea scrolls and all that. So far haven't read much but it seems to be more that Jesus is like buddha than the modern xtian Jesus. What do you guys think of Thomas? Of course FUndy Xtians say it isn't real, But do you think it is authentically Jesus teachings?

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12-21-2005, 03:45 AM	#2
premjan Obsessed Contributor Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: NJ Posts: 61,538	It is part of gnostic christianity, like manichaeism. As it is quite possible Jesus was not a real person, chances are this gospel is as good as the rest.

12-21-2005, 05:48 AM	#4
premjan Obsessed Contributor Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: NJ Posts: 61,538	It is not definite that Thomas was not a gnostic, or the first gnostic.

12-21-2005, 10:12 AM	#6
Diogenes the Cynic Moderator - Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Twin Cities, Minnesota Posts: 4,639	Although Thomas may have been used by Gnostics, I don't believe it is Gnostic, at least not in its first layer (no archons, no sense of the world as evil). It's certainly a very fascinating collection of sayings, but I would argue that its teachings are sapiential and that Jesus is a wisdom teacher rather than a God figure or even a Messiah. It's notable that Thomas makes no claims for miracles and especially notable that it makes no mention of the crucifixion or resurrection. I think that means it might be quite early and independent of the synoptics. It may even reflect an authentic HJ sayings tradition.

12-21-2005, 10:38 AM	#7
premjan Obsessed Contributor Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: NJ Posts: 61,538	Everything about Jesus is perfectly believable, even more so if the Gospel of Thomas is a real compendium of Jesus sayings. The only parts about Jesus that make him science fiction are the miracles, such as virgin birth, resurrection etc. Once this element is introduced, and insisted upon, there is no alternative to completely rejecting Jesus as a historical figure.

12-21-2005, 12:19 PM	#8
robto Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Maryland Posts: 701	The Five Gospels The Five Gospels gives scholarly opinion on which sayings might be authentic Jesus or at least old tradition. It's a fascinating text and, regardless of whether it's Gnostic or not, shows that there were Christians who had a very different interpretation of who Jesus was than the interpretation that eventually became the "orthodox" view.

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