Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Cogitate · 01-12-2006, 11:24 PM

I had hoped to make my first post here at the Internet Infidels by contributing something original, but I am afraid I need your help

I am discussing the Alpha Course (UK based 10-15 week course where Christianity is 'discussed in an open manner') on another message board and, having held my own quite well so far, I am faced with replying to a detailed post on the historical evidence for Jesus Christ:

Quote:

So what documentary evidence is available?
Clearly the primary source is the New testament itself. Now many will dismiss this as partisan and unreliable, but that is not a valid historical view to take. The proper way to study the NT documents is to work out to what extent they are reliable, how far can they be believed, how reliable are they in things that can be verified from other sources, and from that, decide how far to believe in matters without external verification.
Other sources are by necessity sketchy and sparse, given the fact that the events we are talking about happened in a remote corner of the Empire, far from the centre of power. it has also been suggested that some sources (such as Josephus) may be prejudiced, or even have been doctored after the fact. These questions can themselves by addressed with the proper historical mindset.
The external sources include the following pagan sources:
Tacitus (AD 55-120) Annals XV 44, refers to the execution of 'Christus' by Pontius Pilate
Lucian of Samosata (c. 140 AD) Death of Peregrine describes the resurrection of Jesus, although it is clear that he does not believe it himself.
Suetonius Life of Claudius 25.4 describes the disruption made by the Christians in Rome. Also in his Lives of the Caesars he describes the persecution of Christians under Nero, and how they were proclaiming theresurrection of Jesus by AD 64
Pliny the Younger (c. AD110) Epistles X 96 describes the Christians worship, their singing, their belief in the resurrection and their bravery when being executed.
Thallus (c. AD 50) described the darkness that came over the earth at the time of Jesus' death, although his explanation is that it was an eclipse of the sun. Chronography 18.1
Phlegon (c. AD 60) chronicles also describes the darkness at the time of Jesus death.
Mara bar-Serapion (c. 75 AD) records the death of Jesus and the subsequent destruction of Jerusalem and the Dispersal of teh Jewish people.

Jewish sources include:
Babylonian talmud Sanhedrin 43 a describes Jesus being hung on a tree; Sanh 107b mentions five of his disciples; Sabb 104b mentions the story of his virgin birthm, though clearly attributes it to Mary being unfaithful, rather than to God's agency.
Josephus (37-100 AD) AntiquitiesXVIII 33 describes the life and teaching of Jesus, and his reputation as a miracle worker, though again it is clear that Josephus does not believe a word of it. In AntiquitiesXX 9 he describes Jesus trial before Annas the high priest.

Now one obvious retort is that these pagan and Jewish sources contradict the accounts given in the NT, and it is obvious that they would, because if they believed in the gospel, they would no longer be pagans. The point of these quotations is that they provide strong extra-biblical evidence for the main events of Jesus life, and make it impossible to maintain that Jesus did not exist.

I have already replied to point out that these sources are secondary, and I am aware that the Gospels were though to be written between 70-100 CE, but being neither a Historian nor a Biblical Scholar, I wonder if some of you might take the time to explain which of the above documents are secondary, tertiary and further removed sources, which are considered reliable, and which, if any, provide support for events within the Bible?

My thanks in advance

Cogitate

Ruhan · 01-13-2006, 04:27 AM

I will let others respond to these actual issues but I believe that this approach might way over their heads. My parents in law teach this Alpha course as well and if raised these issues I would get a blank stare. Good luck though!

robto · 01-13-2006, 04:36 AM

There was a discussion of Thallus and Phlegon (here, or elsewhere? I forget) recently. IIRC, they are both known only from a Christian source who quotes them. It is not even clear if they mentioned THE eclipse or merely AN eclipse: in one case it seemed pretty clear that the quote was little more than "there was an eclipse at Jesus's death, like the one described by Thallus".

bar-Serapion I don't know anything about.

Most of the other sources are late (Talmud is c. 200-600 AD) and most likely dependent on Christian sources. Josephus, Pliny, and Tacitus are the only early sources, and the ones usually cited. They probably heard what little they know about Jesus from Christians, too - how else would they know? There is no indication that any of them are referring to Roman records when they mention him.

ynquirer · 01-13-2006, 08:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by robot

Most of the other sources are late (Talmud is c. 200-600 AD) and most likely dependent on Christian sources.

If you can say this, you have no idea of what Rabbinic Judaism was.

ynquirer · 01-13-2006, 08:18 AM

Great post to begin with, Cogitate. Fodder for several discussions we are entertaining around here. Josephus, Pliny, Tacitus and Suetonius are well known as well as criticized (by many) as evidence for the Historical Jesus; Thallus is totally dismissed, while first notice of Mara bar-Serapion.

In any event, some mythicists are going to have a nice time checking the Sanhedrin references – I guess. These cannot have been forged by Christian copyists, as many of the pagan sources, allegedly, have been.

Spanky · 01-13-2006, 08:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ynquirer

In any event, some mythicists are going to have a nice time checking the Sanhedrin references – I guess.

What does this mean? I googled it and found nothing to my liking. Can you expound?

ynquirer · 01-13-2006, 09:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spanky

What does this mean? I googled it and found nothing to my liking. Can you expound?

It’s only a friendly invitation for all those support the MJ notion to visit this link and afterward engage in a thorough conversation on the evidence therein.

jakejonesiv · 01-13-2006, 10:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ynquirer

It’s only a friendly invitation for all those support the MJ notion to visit this link and afterward engage in a thorough conversation on the evidence therein.

There is no evidence for HJ there.

See
The Jesus the Jews Never Knew: Sepher Toldoth Yeshu and the Quest of the Historical Jesus in Jewish Sources by Frank R. Zindler.

Jake Jones IV

Toto · 01-13-2006, 11:47 AM

You will find most of these alleged sources discussed here

Quote:

Clearly the primary source is the New testament itself. Now many will dismiss this as partisan and unreliable, but that is not a valid historical view to take.

Well, actually it is.

Quote:

The external sources include the following pagan sources:
Tacitus (AD 55-120) Annals XV 44, refers to the execution of 'Christus' by Pontius Pilate

Tacitus writes in the second century and is probably repeating what he has heard Christians say, if that passage was not added by Christians. There is a recent thread on this.

Quote:

Lucian of Samosata (c. 140 AD) Death of Peregrine describes the resurrection of Jesus, although it is clear that he does not believe it himself.

Lucian was a parodist, not a historian, although he is probably as reliable as many of the historians of the day. He describes the crucifixion, but I have found no description of the resurrection. (See this page.) Lucian is evidence that there were Christians who acted and believed in a certain way, but hardly evidence of Jesus.

Quote:

Suetonius Life of Claudius 25.4 describes the disruption made by the Christians in Rome. Also in his Lives of the Caesars he describes the persecution of Christians under Nero, and how they were proclaiming the resurrection of Jesus by AD 64

Suetonius describes a disruption made by Jews in Rome, under the leadership of Chrestus - a common name that would have been pronounced the same as Christus in the second century. But it is stretching things to call this evidence of Christianity.

Suetonius also records that Christians were punished by Nero - but not for proclaiming the resurrection or for any other reason.

Quote:

Pliny the Younger (c. AD110) Epistles X 96 describes the Christians worship, their singing, their belief in the resurrection and their bravery when being executed.

This is evidence of Christians, not independent evidence of Jesus. And once again, there is no mention in Pliny of the resurrection - only that the Christians sang hymns to Christ as to a God.

Quote:

Thallus (c. AD 50) described the darkness that came over the earth at the time of Jesus' death, although his explanation is that it was an eclipse of the sun. Chronography 18.1
Phlegon (c. AD 60) chronicles also describes the darkness at the time of Jesus death.

Nope. See Richard Carrier, "Thallus: An Analysis"

Quote:

Mara bar-Serapion (c. 75 AD) records the death of Jesus and the subsequent destruction of Jerusalem and the Dispersal of teh Jewish people.

What Mara says is:

Quote:

What advantage did the Jews gain from executing their wise King? It was just after that their Kingdom was abolished. God justly avenged these three wise men: the Athenians died of hunger; the Samians were overwhelmed by the sea; the Jews, ruined and driven from their land, live in complete dispersion. But Socrates did not die for good; he lived on in the teaching of Plato. Pythagoras did not die for good; he lived on in the statue of Hera. Nor did the wise King die for good; He lived on in the teaching which He had given.

However, Jesus was not a King, the Romans killed him, not the Jews, so if this refers to Jesus, it reflects a later Christian interpretation of events and is not independent confirmation of Jesus. See the link at the beginning:

Quote:

In addition to the bogus claim that the Jews executed Jesus, Bar-Serapion's letter contains other errors. Till notes that the letter implies Pythagoras had been killed by his countrymen, yet "Pythagoras left the island of Samos in 530 B. C. and emigrated to the Greek colony of Croton in Southern Italy. He later died in Metapontum, which is now Metaponto, Italy."

I will leave the Talmud to others.

Roger Pearse · 01-13-2006, 11:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Nope. See Richard Carrier, "Thallus: An Analysis"

Without rereading the article, I seem to recall that RC's view depended -- at one point at least -- on preferring the numerals in the Armenian translation of the Chronicon of Eusebius to the text; and he went on to say that he had not followed Alden Mosshammer's reasoning as to why this could not be so (Mosshammer wrote a really rather excellent book on the various versions of the Chronicle, which I read very seriously when I was doing the English translation of Jerome's version of Eusebius' Chronicle).

Even Jerome got confused at one point about the numerals -- there is an interesting variant in the text where he tries to treat TH as text rather than number --, and he had a better text than the Armenian translator has given us. So I didn't go along with that part of the argument.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

01-13-2006, 04:27 AM	#2
Ruhan Regular Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: London Posts: 176	I will let others respond to these actual issues but I believe that this approach might way over their heads. My parents in law teach this Alpha course as well and if raised these issues I would get a blank stare. Good luck though!

01-13-2006, 04:36 AM	#3
robto Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Maryland Posts: 701	There was a discussion of Thallus and Phlegon (here, or elsewhere? I forget) recently. IIRC, they are both known only from a Christian source who quotes them. It is not even clear if they mentioned THE eclipse or merely AN eclipse: in one case it seemed pretty clear that the quote was little more than "there was an eclipse at Jesus's death, like the one described by Thallus". bar-Serapion I don't know anything about. Most of the other sources are late (Talmud is c. 200-600 AD) and most likely dependent on Christian sources. Josephus, Pliny, and Tacitus are the only early sources, and the ones usually cited. They probably heard what little they know about Jesus from Christians, too - how else would they know? There is no indication that any of them are referring to Roman records when they mention him.

01-13-2006, 08:18 AM	#5
ynquirer Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Madrid, Spain Posts: 572	Great post to begin with, Cogitate. Fodder for several discussions we are entertaining around here. Josephus, Pliny, Tacitus and Suetonius are well known as well as criticized (by many) as evidence for the Historical Jesus; Thallus is totally dismissed, while first notice of Mara bar-Serapion. In any event, some mythicists are going to have a nice time checking the Sanhedrin references – I guess. These cannot have been forged by Christian copyists, as many of the pagan sources, allegedly, have been.

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.