spin

I wonder if it dawned that the magnificat is based on Hannah's prayer on the news that she would give birth to Samuel in 1 Sam 2? We have a model of an angelically announced birth, that of Samuel, for which the mother gives thanks to god. The verbal allusions are usually noted in comparisons (see GoogleBooks). Why does one want to look outside the major acknowledged literary context (the Hebrew bible) for sources of allusion in gLk, when there is already fairly certain sourcing?

mountainman

The Mary cult, along with the appearance of Christian hagiography and the veneration of the bones of saints and martyr's appeared in the late 4th century and had little if anything to do with the gospels but more to do with the victorious centralised monotheistic state cult embellishing their victory in the monopoly of religion by popular propaganda.




εὐδαιμονία | eudaimonia

Robert Tulip

The status of Mary gradually grew, especially with the Queen of Heaven trope, such that mariolatrists saw in her the attributes formerly seen by the Egyptians and across Greco-Roman civilization in Isis.Prayer to the blessed virgin is a widespread Catholic practice, and is seen as a source of miraculous intercession.I suspect the early Mary was a placemarker for the high goddess role occupied by Isis and by the various Greek and Babylonian female deities. The patriarchal monotheism of Judeo-Christianity had to gradually evolve a way of engaging with the female in a way that reflected the oppressive sexual power relations of their culture. The equation between sex and sin was a peculiarly Judeo-Christian theme. So Mary only gradually found her power as the object of acceptable male worship, and a way to control women, collecting the attributes formerly held by the other goddesses. Toto, you seem to be using a very limited picture of Mary. The Apocalypse includes a range of depictions that align to this vision of cosmic power, for example Rev 12:1, "A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head." This has been used extensively to provide the Blessed Virgin with a crown of twelve stars - eg here. That helps to show the evolution of the goddess meme from pagan autonomy to Christian supinity, but it reads partly as an overlay, a way of controlling the feminine within a patriarchal frame. But the source of the feminine spirituality of Mary still retains its continuity with her autonomous forebears. There is a paradoxical element in religious ethics, with the idea that the least important things for humans are the most important for God, that God comforts the lost, etc. Mary and Isis both speak to this paradox.

And Isis did have great things done for her, by Horus in his battle against Set, a myth that similarly found its way into the Bible in the temptation of Christ by Satan in the wilderness.

Samuel provides the midrashic source of the Magnificat in the speech of Hannah, but the purpose and meaning of the text requires that we understand the myth of Mary against a wider feminine heritage than just Israel in isolation.

stephan huller

So then you are agreeing that Mary was not originally associated with Isis? Probably not. That would be too reasonable.

But what does this have to do with the origin of the figure of Mary?

'You suspect' is another way of saying that your research is agenda driven. There is no evidence for any of this. You're just trying to fill in the gaps to rescue a stupid idea.

All of this is a distraction from the main point that Mary did not grow out of Isis. That Egyptian elements may have been incorporated into Christianity at a later date is up for discussion. That Mary = Isis has been thoroughly repudiated. You've come about as close as you can be to being honest (= saying 'it's a later development'). Let's move on to something else as you are incapable of resisting being an apologist for New Age nonsense.

Chili

Mary is the supernatural occult part of Catholicism. Without Mary Catholics would just be protestant with no reason to be protestant as just another corner-store religion with Raphael in charge as a 'pig with wings;' last line:
From here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raphael_(archangel)

Nice imagery, I think, and too fat to soar with all those bible passges under his belt.

Raphael is the angel of the Lord, second cause, as opposed to Gabriel first cause from God as designated in Gen.1 and 2.

squiz

So is there a consensus view among scholars of the most likely origin of the story of the virgin birth?

Toto

It's hard to talk about consensus when so many "scholars" have one ideological commitment or another.

There are clear parallels between the gospel birth stories and other birth stories in the Hebrew Scriptures, in terms of seeming divine intervention or blessings (see spin's post above citing Hannah's prayer on the news that she would give birth to Samuel in 1 Sam 2) , but none of these involved young virgins. There are many pagan parallels of younger women impregnated by gods, including Alexander the Great's mother, but these usually involved some physical contact with the god.

outhouse

I believe its YES, obviously influenced by the OT.


Most of what people base their belief in Mary is from later dogma that grew outside of scripture.

The scripture itself states very little.


You take Gmark, and there is almost nothing on Mary either way. Which goes to show the traditions grew with time in different communities.


One thing is obvious, there is no scriptural connection with Isis at all. There is no foundation at all for Isis in any way shape or form. And to date no decent arguement has been provided without doing mental gymnastics.

Chili

But scripture is only testimonial in evidence of truth and so can be prophetic too.

So let's not be stuck on history and will all respect to Isis and who she was in Egypt, she sure is a stranger to us here where Mary holds and so is the future to unfold as the substance of Lord God, in the same way that God has no substance of his own and needs the son to make him known.

This then is how the NT Christ was the God of the Jews made manifest, and here it is not important whether you believe this or do not. It is the claim they make and moved to Rome to dwell among them and therefore crowned Mary her Queen now of both heaven and of earth.

As a result of this, almost inevitable, will She appear to humans down below. With 'down below' here meaning those who venerate 'her being' as the womb of God (or something similar to that), and not as a person to worship on her own, please note.

Accordingly it is also true that "no-one shall see the face of God and live" simply because she is the face of God always made known as a local wherein She is the prefect image of mortal beauty in and by the mind of the visionary seen.

It really is the same thing as an insight we humans see when we 'grasp' the inner workings of an idea that we put to the test in life to prove it true, except that here now the beatific vision is seen wherein we not see the essence of the thing we see, but see the essence of who we truly are.

Plato compared this with seeing land from the crows-nest that here now is seeing the seer [looking to] see.

No mental gymnastics are needed for this and this should also tell why Isis is the archetype in Egypt in the same was that Mary is the archetype in Christendom to lead us to the truth 'within,' of which she is the shine in every living thing. In this sense is there nothing unique about her except that she is mythology specific and therefore Mary is 'it' in Christendom for Catholics to encounter first hand to them.

Robert Tulip

That is just silly and ignorant. The characters in John's story of Lazarus, Jesus, Mary and Martha are Osiris, Horus, Isis and Nephthys. This is obvious to anyone who is not wearing dogmatic blinkers and can look at the facts dispassionately.

People here are claiming they can see the big old virgin mother goddess cult of Isis and argue with a straight face that it has no connection to the crazy invented historicised virgin mother fiction in the small country next door. That is just evidence of religious pathology.