spin

Aww, c'mon, Sauron, haven't you got it yet. It's just so clear. Mordechai is Nehemiah. Darius is Artemis is Medusa is a Mede, all undeniable associations. Artaxerxes is his own father Xerxes and vice versa Xerxes is his own son Artaxerxes. Cambyses is the biblical Ahasuerus (= Xerxes). Bardiya/Smerdis is the imposter king called "Artaxerxes" in the Bible (Ezra 4:11). And Darius I is Darius II. Makes perfect sense. Don't you agree?


spin

Larsguy47

Wow, Spin, you're getting it! See my upcoming post linking Greek astronomy and Bible history!

I hope you're taking notes on all this. You will be tested later! :devil1:

LG47

spin

We're all getting it: you haven't got a clue about what you are trying to do. The sort of butterfly logic of yours, when pointed out to any reasonable person, would naturally be seen as without any merit. But you seem to be incapable of understanding either logic or history.

You will forgive me if I don't hold my breath in anticipation. I've seen too much of your rot. I'm likely to burst before anything useful comes out of it.

The only testing I'm likely to get is the effort necessary not to laugh as I read.

The reason why your number twiddling is just so uninspiring is that it requires one to accept all your presuppositions and ignore all the historical evidence currently available in order for you to attempt to justify your gleanings from traditions that you have no way of showing to be historically valid in the first place. You must work from established information if you want to advance. If your foundations are unproven, then the value of your results are unknowable, ie you won't know what you are talking about.


spin

3DJay

Why does the Presian spear-bearer get the most rations in the country then? Why does the Persian small scepter-bearer get the second most rations in the country then?

And, pretty much all wearing the attire you describe as Hebrew, are called servants/attendants. They are clones. Just like Persian spearmen, or bowmen, etc, who don't wear the hats you assign to them. Not only can't you prove they're not Persian, or Mede servants, you can't prove they're all Jewish.

Cupbearer? The guy is keeping flies off the king's head. Also, Artaxerxes' treasurer looks exactly like Darius', and he has a servant dressed just like the "cupbearer", with him.

You haven't correctly identified anyone. Please, respond to my earlier post http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.p...66#post4328566.

And, the sword-bearer looks the same. The two spearmen look the same. The dignitary looks the same. So, what?


Peace

Larsguy47

Because Xerxes, obviously as co-ruler is actually second behind Darius. The reference to "second" is when Xerxes/Artaxerxes was ruling after Darius died. Even in the bas-relief with Darius, Nehemiah would have been third. So my reference is corrected to "second behind Xerxes-Artaxerxes."

My comment here is only that in the absence of Artaxerxes in this line up this would indicate military rank. Thus I would separate this reference from the palace court ranks. At any rate, the Median person following behind Nehemiah seems to be carrying a sword, which I presume indicates he was the head of the military at the time. Any comments on who this could be? He's a MEDE. Thus, when both military and administrative are combined, Nehemiah outranks the military. He does that when he is with Artaxerxes as well. That is, when both military and administrative personnel are shown with the king the administrative person, the cupbearer outranks the military commander. That is, the prime minister is above the military chief. This would have little to do with "identification."

Again, you have lots of other scenes with the king that does not include everybody. But when Darius is with the true second-in-command, his own son Xerxes, and you have both administrative and military persons shown, Nehemiah is the highest ranking official. And you think they are just fill-in clones/servants? Be my guest.

Don't forget, Xerxes and Artaxerxes were the same king. To legitimatize an "Artaxerxes" rather than the successor "Darius" whom was known to be the eldest son of Xerxes, they had to kill him as well, historically speaking. So they invented the scenario of Darius being involved in the death of his father, Xerxes, and then out of revenge Artaxerxes had him killed. So anything related to that false story is not considered relevant. In the meantime, of course "Darius" followed his father Xerxes-Artaxerxes on the throne 41 years after his father began to reign.


You go by order behind the king. When Xerxes is present with Darius, it shows the true rank. The person immediately behind Xerxes is Nehemiah, the presumed highest ranking person behind Darius and Xerxes:



Now here's your PROCESS. You note the king. Then you note who follows behind him, and that gives you the rank of that person behind the king. This is sufficient to establish the rank of Nehemiah during the co-reign of Xerxes-Darius, which is #3. But when Xerxes was ruling alone as Artaxerxes, Nehemiah became #2.

I myself believe that Bagapates was a reference to Nehemiah since it would explain his high and trusted rank. Thus I have to look into the circumstances of Bagapates and Nehemiah being the same person, historically. I say that because in the Book of Esther, it is referenced that Mordecai rose to high rank because he had saved the life of the king. Certainly with imposter Bardiya/Smerdis on the throne the true royal heirs would have been threatened. If Nehemiah was involved in these initial stages of the exposure, directly or indirectly it would have assured that he was supportive of Xerxes and the royal family, truly trustworthy as well as aggressive with insight and wisdom and would have been an ideal candidate for the position of the cupbearer-prime minister. But PLEASE, I have to check this out further to see if I can overlap this reasonably.

Again, I'll have to compare the hitory with what we know of Nehemiah. Of course, Nehemiah was the personal secretary to king Cyrus when the Jews first returned from Babylon. He held the position of Tirshatha, which was the king's secretary in each land. Persia allowed for lots of feedoms for the people but ZERO power for any priest or magistrate except the king's secretary who made all decisions. Thus when the registration problems came up and a decision had to be made it was Nehemiah who made the decision. He was not a Levitical priest.

Ezra 2:63 Consequently the Tir·sha´tha said to them that they could not eat from the most holy things until a priest stood up with U´rim and Thum´mim."

Neham 10:1 "Now attesting it by seal there were: Ne·he·mi´ah the Tir·sha´tha, the son of Hac·a·li´ah..."

Now factor in he was a eunuch, and thus had access to the queen and princess Atossa, who was about his age and you can see he was already influential in the court. Factor in that Cyrus knew through the Jews he had been prophesied about in Isaiah a hundred years earlier and we can understand why Nehemiah moved up in the ranks, especially if, perhaps by the unsual longer right hand of Xerxes it was seen he was the "chosen" successor to Darius who would become the greatest of all Persian kings and fight against Greece, per Daniel 11:2

"2 And now what is truth I shall tell to you:

“Look! There will yet be three kings standing up for Persia, and the fourth one will amass greater riches than all [others]. And as soon as he has become strong in his riches, he will rouse up everything against the kingdom of Greece. "

So there is lots to explain potentially how Nehemiah went from the Cyrus' secretary to the Jews to becoming the cupbearer at the time of the co-rulership.

I'll research further, but Darius had his own cupbearer when he first began to build at Persepolis. What happened to this person I don't know, but when Darius is shown with Xerxes and the official staff, Nehemiah is the cupbearer.

Here is Darius' personal cupbearer from the bas-reliefs of his Palace. This person has a beard and is apparently PERSIAN. Not Nehemiah! Yet when the line up with Xerxes was made, Nehemiah, the personal cupbearer to Xerxes was shown in the #3 position after Xerxes.



Now Bagopates was PERSIAN so this might indeed be him, and not a reference to Nehemiah at all. Though personalities and histories get mixed up, sometimes by accident, sometimes on purpose. Hard to tell. We can just make comparisons with the varying stories and see what reasonable options are there.

Of course, keep in mind that the influence of the eunuch over Artaxerxes and Xerxes is historical, and those would generally reference the influence of Nehemiah with Xerxes-Artaxerxes. In Jewish folklore, Nehemiah is depicted as being in love with Artaxerxes. But that was not unusual for "eunuchs" in that culture. Love between two eunuchs was openly expressed though obviously no sexual connection was presumed (i.e. Jesus and his "the one he loved" John were openly "together", etc.)

Were any of these men specifically called a JEW? Further, it is proven by the Bible who says Nehemiah was the cupbearer for Artaxerxes for his entire rule. Xerxes and Artaxerxes were the same king. And why would a "chamberlain" have as his "badge of office" a cuptowel, the equipment of a waiter? What? The chamberlain was waiting by the bed to dry the king off from sweating all night? Nehemiah as Jewish eunuch cupbearer will always be an open option of identification here because of the Biblical identification. If you want to challenge the Bible with the pagan records, then that's different. But otherwise, we're done here.

I already told you. The Bible says Nehemiah was the cupbearer to Artaxerxes and Esther says he was "second" to the king. Now if you want to dismiss that and write your own history about this because you have a time machine and went back and discovered otherwise, then great. But otherwise, at this point, there is no "historical" choice but to match the history with the bas-reliefs and Artaxerxes does appear with his cupbearer. End of story.

Again, when you see the court with Darius and Xerxes, you see the highest person next shown is Nehemiah. That is sufficient to establish his importance.

Peace[/QUOTE]

3DJay

:rolling:


Peace