Vorkosigan

Amaleq, can you relate the clues in Origen to a putative original version of the TF interpolated in his time?

Vorkosigan

Steven Carr

Even if the Romans weren't too bothered by such a trial, you might have expected Paul to make a passing reference to it.

And surely there should have been a few more accurate accounts than 4 Gospels, 3 of which seem to be based on each other.

Why is there not one single accurate story about Jesus outside the Gospels?

Every single non-canonical work fails to mention any accurate saying of Jesus.

Where did all these other oral traditions about Jesus go to? They all vanished into thin air, almost as though they had never existed.

andrewcriddle

1 Timothy 6:13 (Which is probably by an early follower of Paul around 100 CE has a passing reference

Andrew Criddle

Toto

What is the basis for dating 1 Tim at 100, or assuming it to be by an early follower of Paul? Peter Kirby lists it as 100-150, but his text notes:

Steven Carr

Fair enough.

My main point is that there is nothing in Christianity which corresponds to the Hadith found in Islam - thousands of stories about Jesus from a variety of sources.

Even writers like 1 Clement, and Justin mention little about Jesus.

When 1 Clement wants a suitable story of betrayal, so he can write 'Ye see, brethren, jealousy and envy wrought a brother's murder.', what story does he tell Christians to illustrate how betrayal can result in persecution of the faithful? Cain and Abel, not Judas and Jesus.

rlogan

I am not sure what the Christian defense is for there being no mention of anyone named Jesus.

Whatever it is - it would not be convincing...

alienward

God should have made sure the Romans recorded his crucifixion on gold plates like he had those Hebrew/Christian ancient Native Americans did for the Mormons.

But this was huge news for Jesus and his followers. You’d think if God was going to come to planet earth at time when humans were literate, to create the most important in human history, he’d make sure it was recorded and preserved.

Amaleq13

It seems like quite a stretch to me to consider the "lost passage" as having been replaced by even the reduced TF. There is nothing about James, nothing about the fall of Jerusalem, and Jesus isn't called a prophet. In addition, unless the murder of James was being blamed on Pilate, it wouldn't fit the broader context.

I just don't get how this lost passage is supposed to have read. It is apparently about attributing the fall of Jerusalem to the murder of James the Just. That, alone, presupposes that Josephus, and presumably his audience, knew who the guy was and considered him significant enough (i.e. well known enough) to warrant such a claim. Yet our boy Josephus still feels compelled to additionally describe him as the brother of an executed messianic claimant and also feels compelled to go on to describe him as a prophet? That just makes no sense to me.

andrewcriddle

The letter of Polycarp to the Philippians contains what are usually regarded as allusions to the Pastorals. It is usually dated around 110 although IMHO it may be around 10 years later.

from section 4:1
compare 1 Timothy 6:10
compare 1 Timothy 6:7

from section 5:2
compare 1 Timothy 3:8-13
compare 2 Timothy 2:12

from section 11:2
compare 1 Timothy 3:5

(I've left out parallels that are IMO very weak or which may be parallels to other writings than the pastorals).

On its own I don't think any of these would be at all conclusive, but most scholars find the cumulative weight of the parallels convincing.

Andrew Criddle

alienward

When a God comes to the planet to perform supernatural stunts like walking on water, and coming back to life after getting skewered on a giant stick to impress humans alive at the time and humans alive thousands of years later, it is very surprising the God would let some records survive those Roman fires, like the ones written by that other guy with the initials J.C., but would let those recordings of his stunts burn up.