Freethought & Rationalism Archive

aa5874 · 12-23-2010, 07:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kapyong

Gday,

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

There is no need for any conspiracy theories ...

See-
that's why no-one takes your nonsense seriously.

I just argued clearly and specifically that it was NOT a "conspiracy".

Then you answered that I argue a conspiracy ?!

You can't even grasp what people write in plain English.

A "Jesus who operated in the HEAVENLY PLANE" in the Pauline writing is a CONSPIRACY theory.

"Paul" CLEARLY stated that his Jesus was the FIRSTBORN of the DEAD and was resurrected.

Col 1:18 -

Quote:

And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

The Pauline Jesus came out of a grave on earth on the THIRD DAY.

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

And, to start with the author of gMark, contrary to your HEAVENLY imagination theory, did NOT claim Jesus acted in a heavenly plane at all.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kapyong

I never said he did.
Perhaps if you could comprehend what people write, you might actually get some answers?

As it is, you get ignored because your posts are ignorant crap.

K.

You claimed Mark wrote a story based on Paul and also claimed Paul's Jesus OPERATED in heavenly planes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kaypong

...I argue that Paul wrote about a spiritual entity - a being who did NOT exist on earth, but who acted in heavenly planes above earth..........

...Mark wrote a story based on Paul, the Tanakh, and other literature of the day - he never lied, there was no hoax, he just wrote a story - without meaning it to be history...

The author of gMark wrote about an entity that OPERATED on EARTH and even was buried in a hewn out rock. It is absolutely Clear that, based on your view of the PAULINE "heavenly plane operating Jesus", that the author of gMark did NOT use "Paul".

What you write is recorded and it is hopelessly flawed. Not one single detail about the life of Jesus can be found in the Pauline writings except that Jesus was crucified, died, was buried and was RESURRECTED on the third day.

The short ending of gMark does not have ONE single thing, ZERO, about Jesus operating in HEAVENLY planes BEFORE he was raised from the dead.

bacht · 12-24-2010, 06:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

But did the ancients really believe that Osiris and Bacchus were real people and that the stupid things that were said about them were real events? I don't know but because I have children I have recently re-evaluated my own childhood 'mythical' interests - comic books, cartoons etc.

I am not sure that Moses, Jesus and Mohammed are 'myths' in the same way as Osiris, Bacchus and Dionysus. I just don't see it.

And remember I am partial to the Marcionite understanding of Jesus which says that he was wholly divine. I think Jesus might have been understood as an angel or 'the angel' of the divine presence who appeared in a historical event at a certain time and place in Palestine.

There is something different about the 'Jesus myth' or the 'Moses myth' when compared against the stories in Hesiod. That has to be acknowledged even if the Judeo-Christian myths aren't accepted as wholly true. They occupy a kind of twilight between historical truth and myth - kind of like the attitude about Jesus's mortal and divine nature in later orthodoxy.

Stephan would you argue that the Hebrews always had a different perspective, or should we look for a development later in the tradition. eg after the establishment of Persian Zoroastrianism?

aa5874 · 12-24-2010, 09:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

....And remember I am partial to the Marcionite understanding of Jesus which says that he was wholly divine. I think Jesus might have been understood as an angel or 'the angel' of the divine presence who appeared in a historical event at a certain time and place in Palestine...

Well, if you BELIEVE Jesus was an ANGEL then you ACTUALLY believe Jesus was MYTH.

You certainly don't believe Marcion was an ANGEL?

Are you a Scholar?

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

....There is something different about the 'Jesus myth' or the 'Moses myth' when compared against the stories in Hesiod. That has to be acknowledged even if the Judeo-Christian myths aren't accepted as wholly true. They occupy a kind of twilight between historical truth and myth - kind of like the attitude about Jesus's mortal and divine nature in later orthodoxy...

What did you say? Now, Jesus is a "different" myth?

Are you a scholar?

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

....To put it crudely - the pagan myths are like jacking off to a porn film - there was no 'real' sexual intercourse, it was wholly imaginary. The Judeo-Christian myths are like you had sex with your wife but you were thinking about the porn star. Not speaking from experience of course. The point is illustrative of the wholly fictitious nature of one experience and the mingling of truth and fantasy in another. Hope that helps.

You mean Jesus is always imaginary whether or not you are really having "sexual intercourse"?

No matter what, "jacking" or "having", you will always imagine that you are with the porn star.

Yeah, Jesus is like that, to put it crudely.

Jesus was NOT ever the real thing.

stephan huller · 12-24-2010, 09:40 AM

But was Jesus the real focus of Christianity? If so why isn't it called 'Jesus-anity' or something like that? As Irenaeus makes clear 'other' Marcionite preferred the gospel of Mark and used it to separate Jesus and Christ saying the former was crucified and the latter stood by watching impassably. And then there was the idea of two gospels - one which was deliberately limited to Jesus and him crucified and the other a 'second wisdom' for the perfect. My bet - from what we know from to Theodore -is that this was the gospel of Mark where the division between Jesus and Christ was explained.

Also the Pentateuch has Israel led by an angel with Moses as the prefigured messiah. I suspect that gospel inherited its main formulation.

Kapyong · 12-24-2010, 11:56 AM

Gday,

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

A "Jesus who operated in the HEAVENLY PLANE" in the Pauline writing is a CONSPIRACY theory.

Wrong.
You don't even know what words mean!
A "conspiracy" is an agreement to commit a crime.

No wonder people ignore your crap.

K.

aa5874 · 12-24-2010, 02:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kapyong

Gday,

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

A "Jesus who operated in the HEAVENLY PLANE" in the Pauline writing is a CONSPIRACY theory.

Wrong.
You don't even know what words mean!
A "conspiracy" is an agreement to commit a crime.

No wonder people ignore your crap.

K.

Are for you for real? You make me LAUGH.

A "conspiracy theory" is NOT an agreement to commit a crime.

You must look up the meaning of "conspiracy theory" NOT just "conspiracy".

Now, clean yourself up, and say exactly what "CONSPIRACY theory" means.

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conspiracy_theory

aa5874 · 12-24-2010, 03:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

But was Jesus the real focus of Christianity? If so why isn't it called 'Jesus-anity' or something like that? ....

You can guess. Jesus was NOT a real thing. In Antiquity, it was extremely usual for cults to carry the name of the cult leader or even for schools of philosophy to be named after the name of the original philosopher, like Plato and Epicurus.

Yet, we find no history at all in the 1st century Christians cults under the name of Jesus, Peter and Paul.

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

As Irenaeus makes clear 'other' Marcionite preferred the gospel of Mark and used it to separate Jesus and Christ saying the former was crucified and the latter stood by watching impassably. And then there was the idea of two gospels - one which was deliberately limited to Jesus and him crucified and the other a 'second wisdom' for the perfect. My bet - from what we know from to Theodore -is that this was the gospel of Mark where the division between Jesus and Christ was explained.....

I think you answered yourself. What did you say about Judeo-Christian MYTHS?

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

.....To put it crudely - the pagan myths are like jacking off to a porn film - there was no 'real' sexual intercourse, it was wholly imaginary. The Judeo-Christian myths are like you had sex with your wife but you were thinking about the porn star. Not speaking from experience of course. The point is illustrative of the wholly fictitious nature of one experience and the mingling of truth and fantasy in another. Hope that helps.....

Jesus was NOT a real thing.

stephan huller · 12-24-2010, 04:33 PM

But who cares? The angel that led the ancient Israelites out of Egypt might have been an embellishment but something about the flight from Egypt MUST be true

aa5874 · 12-24-2010, 08:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

But who cares? The angel that led the ancient Israelites out of Egypt might have been an embellishment but something about the flight from Egypt MUST be true

Or what Marcion believed about his God might have been false but Marcion probably existed.

But with Jesus everything is probably myth, even the the supposed trial before the Sanhedrin and Pilate.

But who cares. It was the OFFSPRING of the Holy Ghost that was on trial.

The Romans NAILED the Ghost of God to a cross.

The Romans could DESTROY anything then.

Kapyong · 12-25-2010, 12:39 PM

Gday,

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Are for you for real? You make me LAUGH.

A "conspiracy theory" is NOT an agreement to commit a crime.

You must look up the meaning of "conspiracy theory" NOT just "conspiracy".

Now, clean yourself up, and say exactly what "CONSPIRACY theory" means.

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conspiracy_theory

What a pity you can't actually understand simple English.

Here is what YOUR OWN cite says :

"it has become largely pejorative and used almost exclusively to refer to any fringe theory which explains a historical or current event as the result of a secret plot by conspirators of almost superhuman power and cunning."

See?

A conspiracy theory refers to a secret plot - an agreement to commit some crime or evil act.

But my argument about Jesus has NOTHING to do with a secret plot at all !

I do NOT say there was any agreement, secret plot, or conspiracy.

If only you could grasp simple points like this, maybe people wouldn't ridicule you.

K.

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12-24-2010, 09:40 AM	#414
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	But was Jesus the real focus of Christianity? If so why isn't it called 'Jesus-anity' or something like that? As Irenaeus makes clear 'other' Marcionite preferred the gospel of Mark and used it to separate Jesus and Christ saying the former was crucified and the latter stood by watching impassably. And then there was the idea of two gospels - one which was deliberately limited to Jesus and him crucified and the other a 'second wisdom' for the perfect. My bet - from what we know from to Theodore -is that this was the gospel of Mark where the division between Jesus and Christ was explained. Also the Pentateuch has Israel led by an angel with Moses as the prefigured messiah. I suspect that gospel inherited its main formulation.

12-24-2010, 04:33 PM	#418
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	But who cares? The angel that led the ancient Israelites out of Egypt might have been an embellishment but something about the flight from Egypt MUST be true

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