Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Gullwind · 08-27-2004, 08:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jbernier

Is that last line that important, though? What I mean is this: Perhaps the stories did not happen as the Biblical text describes. Perhaps there was no conquest. Perhaps there was no Exodus. Does that invalidate the fact that these stories have been and still are meaningful within particular communities? Does it invalidate the fact that the story of the Exodus has been perhaps the central narrative of Jewish thought, community and practice for millenia? Take the expression "Children of Abraham": Is this really a statement about a patriarch who may or may not have existed 4000 years ago or is it a statement about the nature of the relationship among a certain group of people (i.e. the Jewish people) today? It certainly knocks down a naive Biblical literalism but is a naive Biblical literalism necessary for a Biblical faith?

For some people, yes it is. The bible is presented as if it were, in fact, a historical record. If someone can garner some meaning out of it by taking it as allegorical and mythological, then that's great. The same thing happens with Greek, Roman and Norse mythology. The bottom line is that if the bible is NOT an accurate historical record, then it is reduced to the same literary level as those myths. For some people, that is unacceptable.

lulay · 08-27-2004, 09:05 AM

'historical myth' is actually doing in Israel and Palestine now, etc. these stories read literally breed war. torture, maiming-for-life

grendel prime · 08-27-2004, 02:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jbernier

Incredulity at the occurrence of something that we know to have occurred does not speak to that specific mechanism in any sense.

very nicely put...

sourdough · 08-27-2004, 08:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miss Anne Thrope

She said simply, "That's not what the Bible says."

And I said, "Well, no it doesn't."

And she said, "Well, there you go."

So there you go. If the Bible doesn't say it, it can't be true.

anytime someone tries the bible=truth I send them this

www.infidelguy.com/ig16.html :devil3:

Kosh · 08-27-2004, 08:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jbernier

I saw no argument from lack of education. Could you point it out to me, please?

As was pointed out by other posters (size of the universe, etc), the argument from incredulity is really an argument from lack of education.

just because unaware how every subsystem of the Space Shuttle works, doesn't keep it from going up....

animus · 08-27-2004, 09:13 PM

OP by inquisitive01:

Quote:

I think it's pretty extraordinary that a ball of rock in space has somehow managed NOT ONLY to have life existing on it, but also have all of the right things present (and in the order needed) to sustain life. Life not only came into existance, which seems to be extremely extraordinary in itself, but it didn't just cease to exist after a few days or weeks. It has continued and still continues to be sustained within this extraordinary order, the odds of which are unimaginable.

Living on a planet that virtually explodes with it, I really don't see life being all that extraordinary. I don't consider the conditions for the formation of said life to be extraordinary, either. All of the conditions needed for it to happen were there, so life formed. The odds are irrelevant, because it did happen.

I look at it as a car accident. Every time I get in my car and drive, there's the chance that I could wreck. Thousands of seemingly random events by thousands of people, from hitting the snooze button on the alarm to driving too fast, all factor into it. How many "bullets" do I dodge in the span of one trip to the market? I'll never know. But then there's that one day, with that one car, and that one other driver... all of the conditions are met, and suddenly you find your insurance going up.

In other words, sometimes shit just happens.

Jeremy Pallant · 08-28-2004, 01:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by inquisitive01

Actually, you have faith that there will be air (or even, a sufficient amount of air) when you open your mouth. However, it is still definitely possible for one to open his/her mouth without being able to breathe. As just one example, astronauts would not be able to breathe in space if it weren't for special suits... regardless of whether they open their mouth or not.

I can't believe you're pursuing this canard. I don't have faith there will be air when I open my mouth. I know there will be, or will not be, depending upon my situation.

Of course, I suppose it depends upon your definition of faith. Personally I go with that of Ambrose Bierce: "Belief without evidence in what is told by one who speaks without knowledge, of things without parallel."

Yahzi · 08-28-2004, 05:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by inquisitive01

Actually, you have faith that there will be air

You are confusing faith with confidence.

Faith means: knowledge of things unseen, assurance of things hoped for.

Confidence means: expectations based on prior experience.

I don't have faith that the sun will rise tommorrow; I have confidence.

Yahzi · 08-28-2004, 05:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Godless Wonder

Didn't think so. Bet it has a copyright notice though, and the copyright isn't God's.

The Bible isn't copyrighted. It's way past any copyright protection, even granted the most skeptical date of authorship.

jbernier · 08-28-2004, 09:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kosh

As was pointed out by other posters (size of the universe, etc), the argument from incredulity is really an argument from lack of education.

just because unaware how every subsystem of the Space Shuttle works, doesn't keep it from going up....

Not necessarily. I could be fully educated about (for instance) evolutionary theory and still feel that the idea is too incredulous to be true. There is no necessary reason why education and incredibility need be mutually exclusive.

However, yes, in practice these tend to be exclusive.

08-27-2004, 09:05 AM	#32
lulay Banned Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: manchester, England Posts: 916	look what.... 'historical myth' is actually doing in Israel and Palestine now, etc. these stories read literally breed war. torture, maiming-for-life

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