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Old 07-26-2007, 09:57 PM   #191
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I have not read much of Brunner, to include this book, but based on the excerpt, I probably should. I've had a suspicion for some time that the original Christianity was really metaphorical for internal 'spirituality' - you have to crucify (humble) the self , reign in your desires, in order to be resurrected (achieve peace) and become part of the kingdom (those who have achieved iit), but I haven't been able to make a strong case for that. Perhaps Brunner did? There are remnants of this idea that seem to dimly shine through in the writings of Paul, though I don't think this is Paul's position.
Brunner's book is a tough read. Even many self-avowed Brunnerians find it problematic. For me and for others, though, this book really nails it. Without selling Brunner short, I think you may find support for your position in his book. On the other hand, hoping I don't discourage you, I have found that it is best to read the book with as few presuppositions as possible, following Brunner as he lays out his position rather than trying to extract from him support for your own.
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Old 07-26-2007, 11:05 PM   #192
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I'm highly interested in the evidence for Jesus Christ. Chris Weimer, you seem to be against the Jesus myth (I apologize if I'm mistaken), and you also seem to be a scholarly source, could you give me a summary of what current scholastics has for the positive?
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Old 07-26-2007, 11:59 PM   #193
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*Sigh*. Search my posts, Jayco. Alternatively, you can read the introductory book Jesus: Apocalyptic Prophet of the New Millennium (or via: amazon.co.uk) by Bart Ehrman.
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Old 07-27-2007, 12:30 AM   #194
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What about the Tomb nearby on Mt of Olives' Dominus Flevit, Jerusalem. The tombs that date from the 1st half of the 1st Century (40's or late 30's) have inscriptions like Jesus, have mercy," and "Jesus, remember me in the resurrection," indicating the presence in Jerusalem from a fairly early date of a community that believed in resurrection and in a man named Jesus.
Do you have references for this?
This has been discussed here before.

thread 1

thread 2

The evidence is well summarized in this post from Didymus

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The original article, entitled, Gli Scavi del Dominus Flevit, was written by two Catholic priests, P. Belarmino Bagatti and J. T. Milik. And it does describe an ossuarium found at the site of the Dominus Flevit monastery on the Mount of Olives. An old and tediously pietistic and tendentious article claiming that St. Peter is buried there can be viewed at http://www.aloha.net/~mikesch/peters-jerusalem-tomb.htm, and there's a link to the original articles and photos.

The Franciscan "cyberspot" http://www.christusrex.org/www1/ofm/san/TSflevitmn.html has some beautiful pictures of the place, including the ossuaries. The site avoids exaggerated claims for the catacombs, merely stating that:
On the ossuaries were found many more or less symbol signs (crosses, tau, Constantinian monograms) and 43 inscriptions (Hebrew, Aramaic, Greek) incised or traced with charcoal. Of interest is the recurrence of names common in the New Testament, as Mary, Martha, Philo the Cyrene, Matthew, Joseph, Jesus. For the religious, historical and artistic value of these tombs consult Gli scavi del Dominus Flevit by Bagatti and Milik, Jerusalem, 1968.
I recently tracked down the Sukenik ossuary discovery, which took place near Jerusalem in 1947. Supposedly from as early as 42/43 CE, it too had crosses and what was promoted as an inscription appealing to Jesus for resurrection. I finally came across this passage in Crossan and Reed's "Excavating Jesus (or via: amazon.co.uk)":

After a description of the discovery -
But. Later and more careful inspection of those orssaries, along with consideration of the vast array of available ossuary inscriptions and their crosslike markings, dismissed those claims. The cross, it turns out, was perhaps simply the letter tau or a mason's mark indicating where the lid was to be positioned. The initial reading of the charcoal graffito ignored additional marks that resembled the Greek letter delta.... These temporaily spectacular inscriptions simply identified the dead person, as did the names on the chambers other ossuaries, which is always the purpose of ossuary inscriptions. No cross, no appeals to Jesus, no earliest Christian record.
There's no reason to think that the old Dominus Flavit discovery is any more likely to be an actual Christian ossuarium.

The relatively recent discovery of an early Christian church in Megiddo prison, Israel, has spectacular Christian mosiacs that include the fish symbol, but no crosses. As far as I can determine, the church, conservatively dated to 323 CE or thereafter and of Byzantine, not local, origin, is the earliest credible archeological evidence of Christian activity in Palestine.

Unless I see something a lot more credible than the hyperbolic articles on Dominus Flavit, I'll stay with my view that the Jerusalem Christian community in the 1st and 2nd centuries was tiny at best, that the Jews of Palestine didn't reject Christianity out of perfidy but because of an absence of factual support, and that in reality Christianity was demographically a religion of the Diaspora from the very beginning.

Didymus
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Old 07-27-2007, 07:21 AM   #195
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Thanks Toto!
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Old 07-27-2007, 04:02 PM   #196
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You obviously either didn't read what Ben says or have no idea what the positions of mainstream scholarship are. Where did he appeal to the pastorals or Ephesians and Colossians? And if he "can't" determine, then how can you? Wouldn't the endeavor of determining author ship of allegedly "Pauline" epistles be rendered moot?
The fact is the authors of the 'Pauline Epistles' are questionable, therefore it is futile for any-one to claim to know what the authors believed or their intentions. Some or all of the 'Pauline Epistles may be regarded as forgeries.
You seem to have missed my point. Identification of non-Pauline authorship plays strongly on assumptions about "intent." Either way, the argumentation you attributed to Ben is completely wrong.
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Old 07-27-2007, 11:21 PM   #197
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The fact is the authors of the 'Pauline Epistles' are questionable, therefore it is futile for any-one to claim to know what the authors believed or their intentions. Some or all of the 'Pauline Epistles may be regarded as forgeries.
You seem to have missed my point. Identification of non-Pauline authorship plays strongly on assumptions about "intent." Either way, the argumentation you attributed to Ben is completely wrong.
My point is that it cannot be determined who or how many persons wrote all of the so-called 'Pauline Epistles'.
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