Freethought & Rationalism Archive

No Robots · 12-05-2006, 01:27 PM

The reference for the preceding quotation from Paul is 1Thess. 4:15.

jakejonesiv · 12-05-2006, 01:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by No Robots

How's it goin', mang?

Paul apparently knows a saying that wasn't retained in the Gospels:

For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we that are alive, that are left unto the coming of the Lord, shall in no wise precede them that are fallen asleep.

It may be a saying, but where did it come from? The gospels are full of conversations between Jesus and named people, where each one says something. But there is no conversation here, only a command.

OK, that is a possibility, but "by the word of the Lord" usually denotes a prophetic utternace, presumably gained from God in heaven.

For example, "For a command came to me by the word of the LORD ..." 1 Kings 13:17.
"Now a certain man of the sons of the prophets said to another by the word of the LORD..." 1 Kings 20:35.
"For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, ..." 1 Thessalonians 4:15.

Since the command has no context, and the formula reflects the OT word of God to the prophets, it is likely here that we have a personal revelation from Christ in heaven.

Jake Jones IV

Malachi151 · 12-05-2006, 06:06 PM

I've read this before, but now I can't find it. When approximately do we have evidence for the letters of Paul, i.e. when do they become known to out history?

jgibson000 · 12-05-2006, 07:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roland
I'm not sure why this is such a problem. Aren't mythological figures often portrayed as eating and drinking just as humans do?

Quote:

Originally Posted by jakejonesiv

Yes! You think more people would realize this.

Jake Jones IV

Could you be more specific about what you think more people would/should "realize" -- by (a) defining what you mean by "mythological figures"; and then (b) by pointing out where (in what texts) these figures are depicted as eating and drinking (especially with humans) and what they are said to eat and drink when they do so?

Jeffrey Gibson

Ben C Smith · 12-05-2006, 08:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malachi151

I've read this before, but now I can't find it. When approximately do we have evidence for the letters of Paul, i.e. when do they become known to out history?

There are many apparent allusions to the Pauline epistles among the main apostolic fathers (Clement, Ignatius, Polycarp), as well as others. The actual citations by name are fewer, but include the following (this list is not meant to be exhaustive):

1. 1 Clement cites 1 Corinthians as a Pauline epistle by name.
2. Polycarp cites 1 Corinthians 6.2 as Pauline teaching and affirms that Paul wrote an epistle to the Philippians.
3. Marcion accepts ten Pauline epistles (no pastorals or Hebrews).
4. The Muratorian canon lists thirteen Pauline epistles (no Hebrews).
5. Irenaeus names each of the thirteen epistles except perhaps Philemon (at least, I cannot find any references offhand). He at most alludes to Hebrews.
6. P46 is fragmentary, but contains Romans, Hebrews, 1 and 2 Corinthians, Ephesians, Galatians, Philippians, Colossians, and 1 Thessalonians. There is enough room in the missing pages for a couple more epistles.

Ben.

jakejonesiv · 12-06-2006, 06:08 AM

Quote:

The back of the stone of Heddernheim shows the holy meal shared by Mithras and the Sun, who commemorate their agreement together by dining, in a cave, around the body of the sacrificed bull.
The Ancient Mysteries: A Sourcebook of Sacred Texts, Edited by Marvin W. Meyer, HarperCollins, 1987, page 201

Quote:

Clement of Alexandria has preserved a formula that suggests the possibility of a different type of ritualistic observance. His statement is, “The password of the Eleusinian Mysteries is as follows: ‘I have fasted, I have drunk the barley drink, I have taken things from the sacred chest, having tasted thereof I have placed them into the basket and again from the basket into the chest.’” There is no reason for doubting the genuineness of this password. The meaning of the first two elements in the process is fairly clear. The fasting of the mystae corresponded to that of the sorrowing goddess Demeter who “sat smileless, nor tasted meat nor drink, wasting with long desire for her deep-bosomed daughter.” Likewise the drinking of the barley drink corresponded to the breaking of her fast; for the goddess had refused a cup of sweet wine, “but she had them mix meal and water with the tender herb of mint, and give it to her to drink.” This mixed potion the goddess accepted. Accordingly, in drinking a similar potation the mystae shared the cup from which the great goddess drank in her sorrow. It was a direct and sympathetic participation in the experiences of the goddess, an action expressive of attained fellowship with the deity.

PAGAN REGENERATION
A STUDY OF MYSTERY INITIATIONS
IN THE GRAECO-ROMAN WORLD
BY
HAROLD R. WILLOUGHBY

In the above, Willoughby is refering to the Homeric Hymn to Demeter. Kore, the daughter of the goddess Demeter, is kidnapped by Hades with the permission of Zeus. Demter's grief and anger are so great that the abandons Olympus in disguise for the farms and cities of men. No one recognized here for "the gods are hard for mortals to see." Long story short, eventually she does reveal herself, and does drink a concoction of barley groats.

Quote:

On the Heddernheim relief the attendants, dressed as torch-bearers, are offering baskets containing bread or fruit and Sol is handing his companion a bunch of grapes, a gift which Mithras regards with awe. A terra sigillata bowl found at Trier and probably used at the sacred meal shows how the attendant served the bread; at Dura-Europos we have already seen the gods receiving small pieces of meat skewered on a spit; in the representation of the repast in the Aventine Mithraeum a Lion is carrying a cake in a class dish. From the refuse-pits which are often discovered close to Mithraic sites the bones of bulls, boars, sheep, and birds have been found, and the natural deduction is that normally the bull's flesh was consumed and its blood drunk. However, if no bull was available or if the animal was too costly, one either had to be content with the flesh of other animals, generally smaller domesticated breeds, or else with bread and fish as substitutes for meat, and wine for blood. 'That bread and water were used in the mysteries by initiates of Mithras, that we know, or we can get to know,' writes Justin, one of the early Church Fathers. He is careful to use the word 'water' and not 'wine', although there is certain evidence for the use of wine. In the Mithraeum at Dura-Europos the expenses of the community are scratched on the walls, and at the head of the list come the charges for meat and wine. The bunch of grapes held in Sol's hand at Heddernheim points in the same direction (Fig. 24.). One of the attendants on a relief from Caetobriga in Portugal is emptying a jug into a large mixing-bowl, while the other has dropped his torch on the ground and is offering Sol a dish with what appear to be loaves of bread on it.
All this information is once more borne out by the painting in the Aventine Mithraeum, and it is precisely this scene of the sacred meal which suffered most at the hands of the Christian iconoclasts at the end of the fourth century; the other wall was left untouched. The reason for such vehement hatred is not hard to find. According to Tertullian the meal in the Mithras cult was a 'devilish imitation of the Eucharist', and the apologist adds that the initiates of Mithras enacted the resurrection as well. They firmly believed that by eating the bull's flesh and drinking its blood they would be born again just as life itself had once been created anew from the bull's blood. This food and drink were supposed not only to give physical strength but also to bring salvation to the soul which would in time achieve rebirth and eternal light.

Mithraism 6 The sacred meal and the ascent to heaven

Jake Jones IV

Malachi151 · 12-07-2006, 03:11 PM

Here is another major problem passage:

Quote:

1 Thessalonians 2:
13And we also thank God continually because, when you received the word of God, which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men, but as it actually is, the word of God, which is at work in you who believe. 14For you, brothers, became imitators of God's churches in Judea, which are in Christ Jesus: You suffered from your own countrymen the same things those churches suffered from the Jews, 15who killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets and also drove us out. They displease God and are hostile to all men 16in their effort to keep us from speaking to the Gentiles so that they may be saved. In this way they always heap up their sins to the limit. The wrath of God has come upon them at last.

This looks like a possible late edit, but is there any information on this? What is the explanation? This is chapter 2 of the earliest Pauline letter.

Toto · 12-07-2006, 03:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malachi151

Here is another major problem passage:

{1 Thessalonians 2:}

This looks like a possible late edit, but is there any information on this? What is the explanation? This is chapter 2 of the earliest Pauline letter.

This is widely but not universally considered to be an interpolation, even by scholars who are reluctant to see interpolations.

Here is an old thread by a deconverted ex-Christian who still wanted to show the existence of a historical Jesus:

1 Thessalonians 2:14-16 is an Interpolation (unfortunately, his website seems to have disappeared, but you can read the other arguments.)

Clivedurdle · 12-08-2006, 01:01 AM

Quote:

Paul started this rite himself with these letters, and it caught on, becoming an oral tradition that influenced Mark

I think that is probably it.

Remember the alchemic, transmutation themes in the eucharist - wine into blood, bread into flesh.

Paul's christ is a heavenly one, being sacrificed. Us humans reenact - do this in remembrance of me - this in typical magical thinking ritualistic ways.

And I do wonder if there has been a switch in the meaning of the word Christ that has been missed. The Judaic rituals included annointing - we have had huge discussions about if cannabis was used in the holy oil. There would have been specialist priests who made the oil - might they have been called christs?

Magic, alchemy, ritual, drugs - a very heady mixture!

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

12-05-2006, 01:27 PM	#41
No Robots Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Edmonton Posts: 5,679	The reference for the preceding quotation from Paul is 1Thess. 4:15.

12-05-2006, 06:06 PM	#43
Malachi151 Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Colorado Posts: 8,674	I've read this before, but now I can't find it. When approximately do we have evidence for the letters of Paul, i.e. when do they become known to out history?

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.