Freethought & Rationalism Archive

sabalseed · 02-28-2006, 06:15 PM

Ive often wondered about the extreme ages listed for old testament people.Methulasah lived 900 years and Noah many hundreds.Did they measure time differently?These ages are impossible for humans.Did the hebrews invent these people and give them long lives to look impressive?Why?

rob117 · 02-28-2006, 07:50 PM

It's probably derived from Mesopotamian traditions- the Sumerian kinglist has early kings reigning for thousands of years, gradually going down until we get realistic reignal figures for the later kings in the list.

braces_for_impact · 02-28-2006, 07:57 PM

Yeah, long lived heroes aren't specific to the bible only.

Just off the top of my head, when I think of someone who is really aged, I think of wisdom. So someone who is thousands of years old must have been very wise. But this is BS I just made up that makes sense to me. Feel free anyone to offer an alternative. It's a good question!

mdarus · 02-28-2006, 08:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sabalseed

Ive often wondered about the extreme ages listed for old testament people.Methulasah lived 900 years and Noah many hundreds.Did they measure time differently?These ages are impossible for humans.Did the hebrews invent these people and give them long lives to look impressive?Why?

Here is an interesting theory I found online:

Quote:

One of the best-known attempts to support this hypothesis was by Cassuto (1961, pp. 251-254) who showed that each number in Genesis 5 is a multiple of 5 plus 7, the only exception being the death age of Methuselah which is a multiple of 5 plus 14 (or 2 × 7). He postulated that this numerical series was influenced by the sexigesimal number system. Every 5 years equals 60 months. Multiples of 5 years would then be multiples of 60 months. Additions of 7 to multiples of 5 years would be equivalent to saying "somewhat longer than" the multiple of 5 years.

The other interesting study is to look at the overlaps if you take the ages literally. Noah's father could have talked to Adam and Abraham's father lived at the same time as Noah's son. Sorry. Just a wild observation some have noticed.

welsh extian · 03-01-2006, 02:26 PM

Creationist view is that the world pre-Great Flood was surrounded by a canopy of water, and the atmosphere was much thicker. No UV radiation would have reached Earth, meaning no free radical damage, and thus no aging and extraordinarily long lifespans.

Jack the Bodiless · 03-02-2006, 07:31 AM

Ah, if only it was that simple. Wear factor-50 sunblock and live for centuries.

Ben C Smith · 03-02-2006, 07:57 AM

I highly recommend the Word Biblical Commentary by Wenham on Genesis in this regard. He has an excursus on the ages of the patriarchs; nothing is resolved, but very interesting patterns emerge. Also, he helpfully sets the numbers from the Masoretic, the LXX, and the Samaritan Pentateuch side by side (they do not agree with one another).

One scholar, whose name I have forgotten but whom Wenham briefly discusses, hypothesized that the original copy of Genesis actually had at least one ancestor of Noah surviving the great flood, and that the adjusted but differently worked numbers in all three extant textual branches were independent attempts to get everybody to die before the flood. (In the Masoretic, Methuselah dies in the very year of the flood, IIRC.)

Ben.

jakejonesiv · 03-02-2006, 11:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ben C Smith

(In the Masoretic, Methuselah dies in the very year of the flood, IIRC.)

Ben.

He drowned. He was probably a lecher cavorting around with women half his age.

Jake

P.S. Cain didn't die. A part of his curse as a fugitive and vagabond is that he couldn't die and anyone who tried to kill him would be cursed as well.

Anat · 03-02-2006, 01:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mdarus

The other interesting study is to look at the overlaps if you take the ages literally. Noah's father could have talked to Adam and Abraham's father lived at the same time as Noah's son.

Hence the rabbinical legend about the academy of Shem and Eber:
From Jewish Encyclopedia, Shem:

Quote:

Shem is supposed by the Rabbis to have established a school ("bet ha-midrash") in which the Torah was studied, and among the pupils of which was Jacob. Later, Shem was joined by Eber; and the school was called after both of them. Besides, the school was the seat of a regular bet din which promulgated the laws current in those times. Thus Esau was afraid to kill Jacob, lest he should be condemned by the bet din of Shem and Eber. The bet din of Shem proclaimed the prohibition of and the punishment for adultery; and according to this law Judah condemned Tamar to be burned ('Ab. Zarah 36b; Gen. R. lxiii. 7, lxvii. 8). Shem's bet din was one of the three in which the presence of the Shekinah was manifested (Mak. 23b). At Abraham's death Shem and Eber marched before his bier; and they indicated the place that was suitable for his burial (Gen. R. lxii. 6, according to the emendation of the text in Yalḳ., Gen. 110).

(Here Shem survives Abraham, not sure the numbers add up that far.)

mdarus · 03-02-2006, 01:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anat

Hence the rabbinical legend about the academy of Shem and Eber:
From Jewish Encyclopedia, Shem:

(Here Shem survives Abraham, not sure the numbers add up that far.)

This is more fun than I imagined.

02-28-2006, 06:15 PM	#1
sabalseed Regular Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: elberta alabama Posts: 153	ages of old testament people Ive often wondered about the extreme ages listed for old testament people.Methulasah lived 900 years and Noah many hundreds.Did they measure time differently?These ages are impossible for humans.Did the hebrews invent these people and give them long lives to look impressive?Why?

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02-28-2006, 07:50 PM	#2
rob117 Regular Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: New York State Posts: 440	It's probably derived from Mesopotamian traditions- the Sumerian kinglist has early kings reigning for thousands of years, gradually going down until we get realistic reignal figures for the later kings in the list.

02-28-2006, 07:57 PM	#3
braces_for_impact Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: In a nondescript, black helicopter. Posts: 6,637	Yeah, long lived heroes aren't specific to the bible only. Just off the top of my head, when I think of someone who is really aged, I think of wisdom. So someone who is thousands of years old must have been very wise. But this is BS I just made up that makes sense to me. Feel free anyone to offer an alternative. It's a good question!

03-01-2006, 02:26 PM	#5
welsh extian New Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: North Wales, UK Posts: 3	Creationist view is that the world pre-Great Flood was surrounded by a canopy of water, and the atmosphere was much thicker. No UV radiation would have reached Earth, meaning no free radical damage, and thus no aging and extraordinarily long lifespans.

03-02-2006, 07:31 AM	#6
Jack the Bodiless Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: UK Posts: 5,815	Ah, if only it was that simple. Wear factor-50 sunblock and live for centuries.

03-02-2006, 07:57 AM	#7
Ben C Smith Veteran Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: Midwest Posts: 4,787	I highly recommend the Word Biblical Commentary by Wenham on Genesis in this regard. He has an excursus on the ages of the patriarchs; nothing is resolved, but very interesting patterns emerge. Also, he helpfully sets the numbers from the Masoretic, the LXX, and the Samaritan Pentateuch side by side (they do not agree with one another). One scholar, whose name I have forgotten but whom Wenham briefly discusses, hypothesized that the original copy of Genesis actually had at least one ancestor of Noah surviving the great flood, and that the adjusted but differently worked numbers in all three extant textual branches were independent attempts to get everybody to die before the flood. (In the Masoretic, Methuselah dies in the very year of the flood, IIRC.) Ben.

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