Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Toto · 02-06-2012, 12:21 PM

From this report of a debate between Wallace and Ehrman

Quote:

[Ehrman] answered the second question by saying that we really don’t have any early manuscripts. But this again is a huge overstatement. We have as many as eighteen second-century manuscripts (six of which were recently discovered and not yet catalogued) and a first-century manuscript of Mark’s Gospel! Altogether, more than 43% of the 8000 or so verses in the NT are found in these papyri. Bart had explicitly said that our earliest copy of Mark was from c. 200 CE, but this is now incorrect. It’s from the first century. I mentioned these new manuscript finds and told the audience that a book will be published by E. J. Brill in about a year that gives all the data. (In the Q & A, Bart questioned the validity of the first-century Mark fragment. I noted that a world-class paleographer, a man who had no religious affiliation and thus was not biased toward an early date, was my source. Bart said that even so, we don’t have thousands of manuscripts from the first century! That kind of skepticism is incomprehensible to me.)

In the comments on this blog post, Wallace writes:

Quote:

On the first-century fragment of Mark: I wish I could tell you more, but scholarly subjects of this sort frequently are kept hush-hush until publication. I have shared all that I have been given permission to share. A year from now the book will be out and everything will be known.

and

Quote:

Friends, let me clarify a couple of things. First, the Mark manuscript is just a small fragment. Second, I didn’t discover it; I make no claims whatsoever for having done so. Third, exact news of the fragment will have to await its publication about a year from now.

The dating validates Earl Doherty

Some skepticism from here, which somehow links this announcement to Madonna's half time performance:

Quote:

It is really frustrating when people spill ‘news’ of a manuscript discovery to score a point for themselves (e.g., in a debate) but then can only say, ‘Trust me. I got my info from a ‘world-class paleographer; and oh, by the way, he’s entirely unbiased because he’s not a fundamentalist.’ Time will tell, but no-one should buy this until the manuscript has been cross-examined several times. In any case the existence of a manuscript is almost irrelevant anyway unless it has some new light to shed on the text history, and for what it’s worth, it’s incredibly difficult, if not impossible, to pin down a date within the first century on paleographical grounds: the line between the first and second centuries is very blurry. This is likely to be only of great concern to those obsessed with finding the autographa; others whose faith isn’t disrupted or confirmed by autographa will be less wakeful at night.

Toto · 02-06-2012, 12:32 PM

Steven Carr seems to think that this is the Jesus Papyrus

Steven Carr · 02-06-2012, 02:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Stephen Carr seems to think that this is the Jesus Papyrus

Apparently it isn't.

Why isn't this on CBS?

It appears that even Fox News won't touch this story.

No pictures of these manuscripts are available.

Perhaps people have learned from the Lead Codex fiasco that it is not wise to make images available.

PhilosopherJay · 02-06-2012, 04:41 PM

Hi All,

I think it is a good time to announce to all you Atlantis Mythicists that Atlantis has been discovered in the Straits of Hercules. An important oceanographer, I can't reveal his name, has found it and even brought back a sign saying "Atlantis -- 2 Kilometers." All of this will come out in a new book about a year from now. I really can't say anymore. I wonder what kind of excuses all you Atlantis Mythicists are going to say when this comes out? Such skepticism is just so unreasonable to me.

Warmly,

Jay Raskin

Toto · 02-06-2012, 04:51 PM

It looks like this must be a fragment of Mark that is part of the Green Collection - described in this thread. Steve Green, president of Hobby Lobby, has been on a buying spree, buying up Biblical artifacts to prove Christianity.

Toto · 02-06-2012, 04:59 PM

There's more on this collection of fragments here.

mountainman · 02-06-2012, 07:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

There's more on this collection of fragments here.

The collection is described in one comments as a

"traveling exhibit"

Snake-oil not included.

The Early Christian Forgery Mill is so entrenched in the conceptual framework of the 21st century its going to take a resurrection of Socrates to point out the obvious conclusion ...

stephan huller · 02-06-2012, 09:12 PM

Daniel Wallace was speaking in terms of a "third century" text of Mark. Wallace mentioned something about a third-century fragment of Mark, a two-leaf palimpsest, one with text from Mark 3 and one with text from Mark 6; Dr. Wallace said that it "could be as early as the third century" -- or, "it could be as late as the seventh century." A third-century find would be pretty important and even if such a date is too early by, say, two or three centuries, it would still be significant -- and yet what has happened in regard to that?

http://kashow.wordpress.com/tag/csntm/

Toto · 02-06-2012, 09:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

Daniel Wallace was speaking in terms of a "third century" text of Mark. Wallace mentioned something about a third-century fragment of Mark, a two-leaf palimpsest, one with text from Mark 3 and one with text from Mark 6; Dr. Wallace said that it "could be as early as the third century" -- or, "it could be as late as the seventh century." A third-century find would be pretty important and even if such a date is too early by, say, two or three centuries, it would still be significant -- and yet what has happened in regard to that?

http://kashow.wordpress.com/tag/csntm/

You are quoting from a 2009 interview, regarding a find without the Hobby Lobby money pushing it. :huh:

Things take time.

stephan huller · 02-06-2012, 10:29 PM

It's shameful. Half the difficulty in scholarship is getting past all the ego and lies put out by the participants

02-06-2012, 04:41 PM	#4
PhilosopherJay Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Orlando Posts: 2,014	I've Got an Announcement Too Hi All, I think it is a good time to announce to all you Atlantis Mythicists that Atlantis has been discovered in the Straits of Hercules. An important oceanographer, I can't reveal his name, has found it and even brought back a sign saying "Atlantis -- 2 Kilometers." All of this will come out in a new book about a year from now. I really can't say anymore. I wonder what kind of excuses all you Atlantis Mythicists are going to say when this comes out? Such skepticism is just so unreasonable to me. Warmly, Jay Raskin

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02-06-2012, 12:32 PM	#2
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	Steven Carr seems to think that this is the Jesus Papyrus

02-06-2012, 04:51 PM	#5
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	It looks like this must be a fragment of Mark that is part of the Green Collection - described in this thread. Steve Green, president of Hobby Lobby, has been on a buying spree, buying up Biblical artifacts to prove Christianity.

02-06-2012, 04:59 PM	#6
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	There's more on this collection of fragments here.

02-06-2012, 09:12 PM	#8
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	Daniel Wallace was speaking in terms of a "third century" text of Mark. Wallace mentioned something about a third-century fragment of Mark, a two-leaf palimpsest, one with text from Mark 3 and one with text from Mark 6; Dr. Wallace said that it "could be as early as the third century" -- or, "it could be as late as the seventh century." A third-century find would be pretty important and even if such a date is too early by, say, two or three centuries, it would still be significant -- and yet what has happened in regard to that? http://kashow.wordpress.com/tag/csntm/

02-06-2012, 10:29 PM	#10
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	It's shameful. Half the difficulty in scholarship is getting past all the ego and lies put out by the participants

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