Anat

BTW Kabbalah is a medieval reinterpretation (13th century, as far as I remember) and has little to do with what the stories meant to those who told them originally.

Dharma

so then is the Sefer Yetzirah, one of the key books of Jewish mysticism, which is also considered "revealed scripture" by some, incorrect according to you?

again, I posted a Hebraic translation "the souls he created in Haran"...that is far from the suggested meaning of people joining Abraham...there was no reason for the Bible to put it that way, the bible would have simply stated, "people joined Abraham"...

andrewcriddle

The Sefer Yetzirah exists in various forms of which the oldest is post-Biblical but (probably) pre-Islamic.

(It is much older in its original than the main kabbalistic texts but was reinterpreted and enlarged as part of the medieval kabbalistic movement.)

The original form of the passage about Abraham probably read but the later form adds a reference to Abraham's creative activity which was probably not part of the original For more information about different texts of the Sefer Yetzirah see (with caution) Sefer Yetzirah

Andrew Criddle

Dharma

again, you must also explain the passage in Gensis about the souls "he made" in Haran...

1) is "made" an incorrect translation?
2) if this is the correct translation, and the argument is against Abraham being a kind of God, then why did the Bible put it this way?

Strange thing to say, "the souls he MADE in Haran..."

if this is in fact the correct translation, than the latter addition to the Sefer Yetzirah with Abraham the creator, would be the more detailed and correct one...

again, the fact that :

1) Ur can mean fire
2) Abraham "made souls"
3) Abraham is called an "elohim"
4) Sefer Yetzirah supports this claim of Abraham as creator

these four facts put far greater weight on Abraham being a God, one of the Elohim, than those who argue that Abraham was simply some man...in other words, Abraham as a God like Elohim has more scholarly weight.

Lógos Sokratikós

Why does the supposed combination yah+weh suggest two gods, and not be a combination like the modern: Lord (your) God, or Jesus+Christ? Is having two names uncommon? Why can't you have two names for the same thing that simply merged together? :huh:

Dharma

Gershon Winkler mentions that the name of "yah" is taken while pointing upwards to the sky, "weh" is taken while pointing downwards to earth in a ritualistic fashion...

this is similar to the concept of Yin/Yang, or dual energies...so they would be considered 2 separate dieties conjoined...

Chris Weimer

Except that none of this is evidence. If you want to get into later interpretation, then go for it, but Kabbalistic interpretation holds as much water as the Book or Mormon.

Dharma

Are you saying that Ur meaning fire in Hebrew is incorrect? That is not Kabbalistic interpretation, that is Hebraic and linguistic interpretation...can you tell me why a man called Abraham left the "fire" (Ur) and "made souls in Haran"?...this is not a kabbalistic translation, but a Hebraic translation of the original Hebrew...

I see you are running out of arguments to support your case for the current scholarly interpretation of Abraham as an ordinary human.

andrewcriddle

The Verb involved is E(Sh)H. Literally it means make, create produce by labour.

However it is quite often used idiomatically in Hebrew to refer to things acquired through ones hard work. (This is in some ways similar to English idioms like 'make a living' 'make a fortune')

So literally it does mean 'the souls (ie persons) that they made in Haran' but probably the intended meaning is 'the souls (persons) they acquired in the course of business in Haran'

Andrew Criddle

Sheshbazzar

WHO is it that is supposed to be doing this ritualistic "pointing upwards to the sky, and pointing downwards to the earth" ?
How is the name Yah, "taken"? what do you mean by "taken" ?
Where does this idea come from besides Winkler ?
Is he saying that the Jews engage in such a ritual ?
Just seems strange, given the Jews taboo's regarding Ha'Shem.