Amedeo

NEW ADDITION to the brighter Middle Ages:

-- Traders/Explorers (of Asia), who brought much geographical and anthropological information to the Europeans:

> Giovanni da Pian del Carpini (1180-1252), one of the first Europeans to enter the court of the Great Kahn of the Mongol Empire. He wrote books on Central Asia, Rus, and other regions of the Tartar dominion.

> Marco Polo (1254-1324) and his father and his uncle traveled the "silk road" to China (Cathay).

angelo

How Dark? How about a terrible torture and a welcome death for the victim, for daring to criticize scripture, or authority, which of course happened to be the church. Suppressed scientific discoveries, witch hunts, especially if the accused had assets. Check out a book by Daniel P. Mannix ''The History Of Torture (or via: amazon.co.uk)'' [ 1964, 2003 ]

djrafikie

In the "dark ages" in england, people created beautiful jewlery, there were many different languages use across the country, the "vandals" invaded, laying waste to large areas, but equally so bringing another language which has been incoporated into modern english.. and new music, and art, and methods of construction and boatmaking...
There were more than twenty kings, all holding royal court, eating the finest foods, drinking the finest wines.. even peasants drank mead (honey brewed ale.. its quite lovely)..
There were many different religions, ranging from nordic and germanic paganism, to the varied beliefs of the druids and heathens...
Ogham script was still in used, as were other versions of the written language, examples still exist today.
Most of the wild forests still existed, wales was a thickly forested wild land, scotland and england were covered in lush green growth, we still had wild boar and huge herds of deer. Tales of the huge stags and exciting hunts survive even now.. people believed in fairies and dragons, and other mythic creatures, Exciting spices and fabrics were arriving from other countries..
Dark? No way!

Sarpedon

On a side note, I have to post a correction: I earlier stated that in the middle ages builders did not use scaled drawings. Yesterday I bought a book which contains a (photograph of a) beautiful scaled drawing on parchment of the facade of Strasbourg Cathedral (with 2 towers, as it was meant) Now, this was built in the late Gothic period (15th century) so my argument about the extinction of the educated professional classes during the Dark Ages is not necessarily dispelled, but the specific claim I made was not entirely true.

Antipope Innocent II

Things that were quite common well into the Modern Era.

Churches (plural). This was the case well into the Modern Era, and the Catholic Church had no monopoly on all this.

Name one. We're talking about the Dark Ages here (500-100 AD) Name one. Or name one for the Middle Ages generally (500-1500 AD)

And you are the same Angelo Atheist who claimed the Church taught the Earth was flat and then ran away when the thread on that subject showed you were totally wrong, aren't you? Are you going to try to actually present some evidence to support that claim or are you going to run away again?

The witch hunts were largely a post-Medieval phenomenon and largely a Protestant obsession.

Amedeo

From the 12th century on, geographical explorations were associated with commerce. But as noted before, the advent of the translated classics, especially Aristotle's natural philosophy and works by mathematicians and astonomers, awakened a layer of Europe [primarily some people in Italy, France, England] literally from its "dogmatic slumbers." [This is the term Kant used when Hume awakened him.]

I mentioned three new mathematicians in post # 303; now I'll mention some "theoreticians" [of nature] -- which brings to mind Vico's Greek terms "theremata and mathemata" in conjunction with the ancient transition from the Age of the diviners to the Humanistc Age. (This is also mentioned in Robert Pogue Harrison's book, "Forests -- the Shadow of Civilization," 1992.// Vico wrote "The New Science" in the 18th century.)

Aristotelian theories of nature had been utilized by theologians, but now that the original works of Aristotle became available in Latin, the theologians found that Aristotle was not all "speculations;" he was a curious observer on nature (especially living things) and formulated some arguments about nature on the basis of empirical observations. So, a spirit of empiricism arose in theologians and other learned men. But I must add immediately that current writers (in Wikipedia and journals) still do not know the difference between empiricism and science and, therefore, infer that there was an awakening and pursuit of science in various theologians. Some people do not know either the difference between empirical mathematics and demonstrative mathematics, and make ludicrus historical inferences.) Indeed, some theologians in England and France and Italy conducted some naturalistic/empirical research, but they are not to be called scientists. (Beginning in the 17th century, the basic Aristotelian theories about nature were directly or indirectly overturned by the scientists: Galileo, Newton, Darwin, and some less renoun scientists.)

Theologians to search out: Grosseteste, Oresme, Roger Bacon, Duns Scotus [the Irishman], William of Ockkam, and others. (The high-level theology of the schools came practically to an end after them, since they advocated, and even practiced, the independence of theology and of natural philosophy -- in the empirical Aristotelian vein. They also understood the "logical necessities" of Greek mathematics a prescibed a mathematical basis for philosophy.)

The new naturalists, as we should call them, were associated, not with commerce, but with technology, of which they were inventors. Two examples in the aftermath of the revival of natural philosophy and of mathematics in Europe:

And

Gutenberg of Germany invented the movable-type press around the middle of the 15th centure and published Bibles. Then came the Aldine Press that specialized in the printing of the classics, making them available far and wide:

___________
***As a script (hanwritten), italics [corsivo, in Italian] was developed much earlier by the 14th century Florentine humanist, Salutati, who was a secretary to the pope, and is therefore called also the chancery script. The letters are curvacious, slanted, and connected, so as to make writing clearer and faster. (The earlier Medieval or Monastic script, one of which is called Gothic, has verticle, disconnected, and generally angular letters (caused by the quill-writing).
Even in the handwriting there is a difference between the Middle Ages and the Renaissance.

Amedeo

[plesase mispellings in# 316: ---> renown / vertical / etc.]

Angelo, I have not read the book you cite, nor am I going to document the history of torture and suppressions that I am sure you read about, but I'll make couple of references of my own, anyway.

Back to the Dark Ages:

http://www.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cathars

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http://www.mystae.com/restricted/str...is/legend.html

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Roger Bacon
http://www.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roger_Bacon

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Witches and the rest....
http://www.atheism.about.com/library...an_witches.htm

Antipope Innocent II

How was the persecution of a alternative religion that threatened the status quo unique to the "dark ages"/Middle Ages? Why did the Puritans leave England? Was that in the Middle Ages? Why are the religious persecutions of the Middle Ages held up as examples of barbarism but not the religious persecutions of the Romans?


Bacon's political troubles had more to do with his leaning towards the "spiritual" faction of the Franciscans. They were not an example of any suppression of science.

There was a change in the theology of the later Middle Ages that began to associate some forms of magic with diabolism and therefore make its practice heretical. This was the beginning of what was to become the "Witch Craze" of later centuries. But the "Craze" itself was mainly post-Medieval (Sixteenth to Eighteenth Centuries) and was mostly a phenomenon in Protestant countries.

In other words, a phenomenon of the supposedly wonderous and enlightened "Renaissance" Amedeo.

PS All this posting and still none of the evidence I keep asking you for. Why is that Amedeo. Stop being such a child - just admit that you can't provide that evidence because you were wrong. It won't hurt you to admit the truth and it might restore a tiny bit of your credibility.

angelo

[QUOTE=Antipope Innocent II;4792967]Things that were quite common well into the Modern Era.



Churches (plural). This was the case well into the Modern Era, and the Catholic Church had no monopoly on all this.



Galileo comes to mind. Remember him? The discovery of germs causing illness and death was not accepted by the churches either. [it was the will of god]. And I repeat, there is a religious organization in existence [still] that shuns science and believes the bible as the literal word of god; therefore the world is flat. I no longer have the reference book, so can not give any more info.

But I will try to find the information.

Antipope Innocent II

[QUOTE=angelo atheist;4794673]I remember that he was born in 1564 and so is totally irrelevant to the Middle Ages. Here's those dates again - 500-1500 AD.


The discovery of germs was centuries after the Middle Ages. I asked for examples from 500-1500 AD. Try again.

And next time try to pay more attention to the point you're meant to be addressing.