Jenn6162

The book of Isaiah was written before the Babylonian dispertion, but speaks of the Lord regathering Israel for a second time, which would be after the 70 AD dispertion.

Isa 11:11 And it shall come to pass in that day, [that] the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.


Isa 11:12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.


I have more, but only posting this one for now. Is this one clear and unambiguous?

Paradox

I never found the prophecies relating to Israel very convincing - mainly because there were a lot of influential believers that knew about these prophecies and did their best to make sure they were fulfilled. That's one of the reasons why they actually were givenback their nation.
And in any case, the condition of Israel at the moment hardly supports fulfilled prophecy does it.
There were a few "fulfilled" prophecies that I used to find convincing such as the one about Tyre and Sidon, but there has been much discussion on that in this forum and it doesn't take long to see how that prophecy can be pulled apart.

Other prophecies such as Jesus talking about the destruction of the temple are easy to explain - they were obviously written after the event.

Other prophecies have been translated by biased people who see the Scriptures and interpret them that way.

Unbeliever

It's pretty easy to have prophecy fulfilled when opposites are predicted, for example, concerning Israel becoming a nation once again. Amos 5:2 says that Israel will no more rise.

Jenn6162

If that is the case then why are the Jews so hated, and why did they feel the need to go "home"? Also how do you explain the land's change from the days when the arabs were in the land and it was a desert and when they came back in basically turned green? There are prophecies on that too. I can find them if you want. Also if Isaiah was indeed written in the eighth century BC, he wouldn't have known about the Babylonian dispertion and he wouldn't have known about the 70 AD dispertion. If the translators were biased they would have had to change their Bibles after 1948. I wouldn't think it would be too hard to find a Bible with a publication date before even 1940, then we would have an answer for that argument.

Godless Dave

What?!? Got a reference for that incredible assertion?

Jenn6162

That is not quite what it says.

Amo 5:2 The virgin of Israel has fallen;
She will rise no more.
She lies forsaken on her land;
There is no one to raise her up.
Amo 5:3 For thus saith the Lord GOD; The city that went out [by] a thousand shall leave an hundred, and that which went forth [by] an hundred shall leave ten, to the house of Israel.

I don't have the words to explain what this means properly, so I used a commentary. I wish I could have found a more concise explanation, but this will have to do. I think when you look at the verse after Amos 5:2, it is obvious that it is not predicting the complete destruction of Israel, but that she will no longer have the favor she had from God.

The word to be heard is a lamentation, a lamentable account of the present calamitous state of the kingdom of Israel, and a lamentable prediction of its utter destruction. Their condition is sad: The virgin of Israel has fallen (v. 2), has come down from what she was; that state, though not pure and chaste as a virgin, yet was beautiful and gay, and had its charms; she looked high herself, and was courted by many as a virgin; but she has fallen into contempt and poverty, and is universally slighted. Nay, and their condition is helpless: She shall no more rise, shall never recover her former dignity again. God had lately begun to cut Israel short (2 Ki. 10:32), and, because they repented not, it was not long before he cut Israel down. 1. Their princes, that should have helped them up, were disabled: She is forsaken upon her land. Not only those she was in alliance with abroad failed her, but her friends at home deserted her; she would not have been carried captive into a strange land if she had not first been forsaken upon her own land and thrown to the ground there, and all her true interests abandoned by those that should have had them at heart. There is none to raise her up, none that can do it, not that cares to lend her a hand. 2. Their people, that should have helped them up, were diminished, v. 3. "The city that had a militia, 1000 strong, and, in the beginning of the war, had furnished out 1000 effective men, able-bodied and well-armed, when they come to review their troops after the battle, shall find but 100 left; and, in proportion, the city that sent out 100 shall have but ten come back, so great a slaughter shall be made, and so few left to the house of Israel for the public service and safety.’’ Scarcely one in ten shall escape of the hands that should relieve this abject, this dejected, nation. Note, The lessening of the numbers of God’s spiritual Israel, by death or desertion, is just a matter for lamentation; for by whom shall Jacob arise, by whom shall the decays of piety be repaired, when he is thus made small?

Jenn6162

I do and I think Mark Twain also wrote about it. I promised I would get off the computer at eight, so I will fetch it for you tomorrow with several sources.

Paradox

There's no good reason to assume that the hatred of the Jews supports Biblical prophecy. I suspect that a lot of the times when persecution came their way it had an indirect link with the idea that they were God's chosen people. Take the holocaust for example - there you've got Hitler with catholic influences and along with that a religious hatred for the Jews. I know that there are other reasons why they were persecuted, but there's no doubt that the religious aspect had an influence there. In a round-about way you've got your self fulfilling prophecy.

As for the desert prophecy, I don't have an answer for that one as I hadn't done much in the way of research there, but I'm sure there are others on here who have and can offer a rational explanation for that.

And Isaiah predicting the carnage in AD70 - You've really got to stretch your interpretation of Scripture to pull that one off!

As for 1948 - Check your history and see who it was that influenced the nation being brought back. You'll see that the people involved actually wanted the prophecy to come true - therefore self-fulfilling (I thought I'd already mentioned that)

buckshot23

I didn't know pictures were claimed to be inspired. Cool.

Jenn6162

Hi Paradox,
I have read much of your testimony, and your eschatology pages. They are very interesting, and I really appreciate you sharing that with me. I have many thoughts on your experience with your former faith, and how you approached God's will in your life and others close to you. I would like to speak frankly with you about them, but I have decided not to for fear that I would offend you. I do not know you, and cannot possibly know your whole experience and circumstances surrounding your deconversion from a few pages from your website. So thanks for sharing that with me.

Now to the topic at hand, there will always be criticism of anything that cannot be proven without a doubt. So I am not here under any illusion that I would be able to convert anyone. That being said, I disagree with your assertion. I believe the hatred literally goes back to Issac and Ishmael. To me it a hatred so deep and unimaginable that I cannot fathom. No matter where the hate comes from it is there, and it makes no sense. To hate someone because of their heritage is inexcusable. Someone cannot help the fact that they are born a Jew. So being a self fulfilling prophecy seems like a stretch to me. Why is it that the arabs cannot stand that the Israelis own a tiny piece of land? When no one wanted to be there until the Jews came back to the land, and there was money to be made. I am not trying to start a political debate, so I will stop there.

As for Isaiah predicting the carnage of 70 AD, I made no such claim, the prophecy only stated that Israel would be brought back into her land a second time.

Yes I know who was behind giving Israel back their land, but how did Isaiah know it was possible that it would happen in a day. If you tell me it was altered, then as I said before we need to find a Bible that was printed before 1940.

"Who has ever heard of such a thing? Who has even seen such things? Can a country be born in a day or a nation be brought forth in a moment? Yet no sooner is Zion in labor, than she gives birth to her children... Rejoice with Jerusalem and be glad for her, all you who love her; rejoice greatly with her, all you who mourn over her" (Isa. 66:8,10).

Now to desert and cultivation prophecies.

"The wilderness and the solitary place will be glad for them and the desert will rejoice and blossom as a rose" (Isa. 35:1).

In Amos 9:14-15: God says: "Also, I will restore the captivity of My people, Israel, and they will rebuild the ruined cities and live in them. They will also plant vineyards and drink their wine, and make gardens and eat their fruit. I will also plant them on their land and they will not again be rooted out from their land which I have given them, says the Lord your God."

"But you, O mountains of Israel, will produce branches and fruit for My people Israel, for they will soon come home. I am concerned for you and will look on you with favor; you will be plowed and sown, and I will multiply the number of people upon you, even the whole house of Israel. The towns will be inhabited and the ruins rebuilt. I will increase the number of men and animals upon you, and they will be fruitful and become numerous. I will settle people on you as in the past and will make you prosper more than before. Then, you will know that I am the Lord. I will cause people, My people Israel, to walk upon you. They will possess you, and you will be their inheritance; you will never again deprive them of their children" (Eze. 36: 8-12).


http://www.mtwain.com/Innocents_Abroad/57.html

http://www.bridgesforpeace.com/publi...rticle-41.html