FRDB Archives

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.


Go Back   FRDB Archives > Archives > Religion (Closed) > Biblical Criticism & History
Welcome, Peter Kirby.
You last visited: Today at 03:12 PM

 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 12-19-2004, 03:51 PM   #11
Contributor
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Los Angeles area
Posts: 40,549
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Juliana
....
The funny thing is there are even two clerics (one even a Jesuit) who recommend this work, see: http://www.carotta.de/eindex.html
Wonder what their superiors say?

Juliana
Recommended without endorsing the conclusion

Quote:
'Carotta writes with respect for his subject, even with religious discretion, with witty irony but also with poetry. Even if one cannot or will not follow the author’s conclusions, one learns much about Roman religiousness, which became the basis of the development of the Christian faith in the European cultural environment.'
– Rev. Stephan Ch. Kessler S J, Dr. theol.
(One quote - the original review does not seem to be available in English.)

Quote:
The book paints down to the smallest details a picture of the similarities between Julius Caesar and Jesus Christ.'
– Rev. Willem J. Ouweneel, Ph.D. D.D
Toto is offline  
Old 12-19-2004, 03:56 PM   #12
Banned
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Alberta
Posts: 11,885
Default

Don't get too excited. It will just be another 'strawberry' coming our way much like the scientific discoveries of Darwin and Galileo that completely missed the metaphysics of the story. It certainly will be more food for thought to strengthen unbelief and that might just slow down a civilization that is on the run.
Chili is offline  
Old 12-19-2004, 04:02 PM   #13
Contributor
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Death Panel District 9
Posts: 20,921
Default

On the fire in Rome. That was what is known as a blow-up. It's doubtful modern fire fighting methods could have stopped it. It is also very possible that speculators did not start any fires. I'm sure there were a few arsonists, but spot fires would have been common.

Jesus was an alien.

My 2cents. Carry on.
Nice Squirrel is offline  
Old 12-19-2004, 04:42 PM   #14
Contributor
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Death Panel District 9
Posts: 20,921
Default

On the fire in Rome. That was what is known as a blow-up. It's doubtful modern fire fighting methods could have stopped it. It is also very possible that speculators did not start any fires. I'm sure there were a few arsonists, but spot fires would have been common.

Jesus was an alien.

My 2cents. Carry on.
Nice Squirrel is offline  
Old 12-19-2004, 06:12 PM   #15
Regular Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Germany
Posts: 154
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toto
Recommended without endorsing the conclusion



(One quote - the original review does not seem to be available in English.)
There is another one by a Spanish priest who is working on a Spanish translation:
"To my astonishment, the Passion and the whole Gospel had a truly Roman context, and they do lead back to Julius Caesar.’"
see also on the bottom of the translators' page:
http://www.carotta.de/esub/interpre.html#tommie
Juliana is offline  
Old 12-20-2004, 10:22 AM   #16
Contributor
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: London UK
Posts: 16,024
Default

Quote:
Julius Caesar, son of Venus and founder of the Roman Empire, was elevated to the status of Imperial God, Divus Julius, after his violent death. The cult that surrounded him dissolved as Christianity surfaced.
Isn't one of the titles of the Pope Pontifex Maximus - which was one of Caesar's titles?
Clivedurdle is offline  
Old 12-20-2004, 11:37 AM   #17
Regular Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Germany
Posts: 154
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Clivedurdle
Isn't one of the titles of the Pope Pontifex Maximus - which was one of Caesar's titles?
Yes, Jesus was Pope.
There is an interesting linguistic note from the book on that website as to how Gaius Julius became Jesus.
http://www.carotta.de/subseite/texte/jwc_e/vp.html

[90] Gaius Iulius as a proper name cannot endure: it is too long. Proper names shrink in usage to a maximum length of two syllables. Johannes becomes Jannis, Jean, Sean, Ian or John, etc. and if officialdom tries to preserve the full form it shrinks just as much in practise—so the German Johannes to Hans for example, or the Italian Giovanni becomes Gianni; of course Johannes can be abbreviated according to the modern trend to Jo but it has to become shorter. The same thing happens to other names with three or more syllables: Margarita becomes Margit or Rita, Joseph can remain (it only has two syllables, but there is in German the option of Sepp), but Giuseppe (three syllables) becomes Beppe, Francesco becomes Franco, Checco, Paco or Franz etc. (but François can remain): always the maximum of two syllables.
The same tendency toward one or two syllables can be observed in the names of towns: Colonia becomes Köln, Confluentes Koblenz, Mogontiacum Mainz, Forum Livii becomes Forlì etc. Gaius Iulius has four syllables. The abbreviations, only Gaius or only Iulius, rule themselves out because they would lead to confusions. The name has to contract itself. As a comparison Forum Iulii, which became Fréjus, could help us to understand the process (apparently the vulgar tongue started from the undeclined basic form F orum Iulius: Forum Iulius > Fre-jus). This shows that the second link of our combination Iulius becomes -ius (-jus). The unaccented middle syllable then fades (cf. i. a. Pope (1934): vigilare > veiller; regina > reine; nigrum > noir; legere > lire, etc.). So Gaius Iulius will have as an intermediate stage Gais-jus. The initial soft ‘g’ becomes ‘j’, whereas the spirant ‘s’ absorbs the semivowel ‘j’ of the second link; then the accented vowel in the first link closes itself to ‘e’ (especially in the case of the Greek Gaios, because it is understood as a dialectal version of gêios —pronunciation ‘ghêios’—Dorean gavio" / Attean ghvio"): Iêsus, Greek IHCOYC.
Gaius Iulius > Gais-jus > Iêsus > IhsouV.
Gaius Julius and Jesus can be one and the same name, the one in its elaborate form and the other in the everyday one.
Juliana is offline  
Old 12-20-2004, 02:12 PM   #18
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: England
Posts: 2,561
Default

"Interesting linguistic note"?

More like huge heap of bollocks.

True, names change over time, but not *that* much in the time between Caesar's death and Paul's epistles; and we already have a perfectly good and much less implausible explanation for the name Jesus.

The sound changes proposed are completely ad-hoc. He suggests that 1,000 years of sound change between Latin and French/Italian could all have happened in less than 100 years for this one word? Big pile of rubbish.
The Evil One is offline  
Old 12-20-2004, 04:10 PM   #19
Regular Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Germany
Posts: 154
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Evil One
"Interesting linguistic note"?

More like huge heap of bollocks.

True, names change over time, but not *that* much in the time between Caesar's death and Paul's epistles; and we already have a perfectly good and much less implausible explanation for the name Jesus.

The sound changes proposed are completely ad-hoc. He suggests that 1,000 years of sound change between Latin and French/Italian could all have happened in less than 100 years for this one word? Big pile of rubbish.
Evil One,

there is no problem for those changes to occurr within a few generations.
And the two explanations for the name Jesus are not mutually exclusive.
For expertise on the matter maybe better ask this guy:
http://www.carotta.de/esub/preface.html
Juliana is offline  
Old 12-21-2004, 08:39 AM   #20
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: England
Posts: 2,561
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Juliana
For expertise on the matter maybe better ask this guy:
http://www.carotta.de/esub/preface.html
Since the link contains no material that I can see relevent to the question of the proposed sound changes, I must assume that what is being pointed out is the author's qualifications in linguistics. That would be an invalid argument from authority: having a PhD doesn't stop horseshit argumentation being horseshit.
The Evil One is offline  
 

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 04:51 PM.

Top

This custom BB emulates vBulletin® Version 3.8.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.