Freethought & Rationalism Archive

John123 · 02-14-2005, 04:08 AM

Craig debated Shabbir Ally over the course of four days.They debated on 4 issues :

1.Did Jesus of Nazareth Physically Raise From the Dead? - Shabir Ally & Craig

2.Who is the true Jesus, The Jesus of the Bible of the Jesus of the Quan - Shabir Ally & Craig

3.Who is the true Jesus, The Jesus of the Bible of the Jesus of the Quan - Shabir Ally & Craig

4.Concept of God in Islam and Christianity - Shabir Ally & Craig

link :http://www.shabirally.com/debates.asp

who in your opinion got throughly spanked?

Toto · 02-14-2005, 11:54 AM

Are there transcripts of these (for free?)

Toto · 02-14-2005, 12:16 PM

There is a comment by Dennis Giron, who has published on II; his preliminary analysis is here. He thinks Craig won overall, but Ally did spectacularly well on one debate and put in a good performance:

Quote:

From there we switched to the debate on the resurrection. Here I must say that Ally really dominated. It was, in my opinion, his finest moment in the four days. Craig offered his weakest argument of the debate, that the belief that Jesus had risen from the dead was antithetical to both later-Christian and earlier-Jewish beliefs, and his intention was to appeal to the audience's credulity, asking "how could they come up with this idea?" - and then conclude that Jesus really did rise from the dead. Ally demolished this quite easily by noting that Craig wants us to believe no one expected a resurrected Messiah, but the very bedrock of Christianity is that *everyone* expected this, that Isaiah 53 spoke of such a being, that Jesus predicted his own rising from the dead (via the parable of Jonah, et cetera), that it was obvious. Craig tried to argue that those were all later additions to the texts and to Christian theology, not part of the historical core. Unfortunately, with that defense, Craig refuted himself to some degree, as he answered his own question. If that was later theology imposed on the texts, then we now know one possible way that people might come to the conclusion that Jesus rose from the dead: he essentially admitted that it is possible to develop such theology.

But

Quote:

The final tape we watched was on the subject of the Islamic concept of God vs the Christian concept of God. Here we all expected Ally to mop the floor with Craig, since defending the Trinity is practically impossible. However, I have to give credit to Craig; he won this hands down, though he did so via his skills as a great debater - he took the debate where he wanted it to go. . . .

Ally never came close to disputing the coherence of Craig's conception of the Trinity. Others could argue that Craig's concept of the Trinity is radically different from the traditional understanding (where each separate personality is God, and yet all three are God - in Craig's view Jesus is just the yolk, or just the shell, not the whole egg), but this too I think would be irrelevant - it is almost a strawman argument. Even if Craig is in the minority with regard to his interpretation of the Trinity, the debate should focus on his interpretation. To try and force him to accept someone else's interpretation of the Trinity would be like trying to force a Qur'an-only Muslim to believe in the ahaadeeth so we could attack Islam on that front...

Finally, I have to say that I think Craig generally got the better of Ally overall (save for the resurrection debate). Nonetheless, I have to give Ally credit. When Craig debated Badawi, Craig was calm and cool, and Badawi became very flustered, frustrated and angry towards the end. In these debates with Ally, especially on the fourth day, Craig got a bit abusive, but not once did Ally ever come close to losing his cool. Shabir Ally was always very calm and cordial. Not only that, Ally did extremely well considering the fact that it was a debate between a man with only a B.A. and a man with PhD.

Dirac_Delta · 02-14-2005, 05:44 PM

"Ally never came close to disputing the coherence of Craig's conception of the Trinity. Others could argue that Craig's concept of the Trinity is radically different from the traditional understanding (where each separate personality is God, and yet all three are God - in Craig's view Jesus is just the yolk, or just the shell, not the whole egg), but this too I think would be irrelevant - it is almost a strawman argument. Even if Craig is in the minority with regard to his interpretation of the Trinity, the debate should focus on his interpretation. To try and force him to accept someone else's interpretation of the Trinity would be like trying to force a Qur'an-only Muslim to believe in the ahaadeeth so we could attack Islam on that front..." (previous post)

I don't quite agree. They were dabating the concept of God in Christianity so I think it's relevant to estabilish exactly that concept. The problem is, of course, there are many diferent definitions of God in Christianity. I my opinion this means that the whole debate is meaningless. The issue should be: "Concept of God of Craig and of Ally".

Diogenes the Cynic · 02-14-2005, 08:48 PM

I have nothing useful to say about the debate, I just wanted to say that reading the thread title keeps making me think of of Ali G. Hmmm...Craig vs, Ali G. Now THAT would be a debate worth watching.

Steven Carr · 02-14-2005, 09:36 PM

I spoke to Shabir Ally after a debate at Newcastle university.

He believes that Adam was 90 feet tall!

He based this on Sahih Bukhari Volume 4, Book 55, Number 543:

Narrated Abu Huraira: The Prophet said, "Allah created Adam, making him 60 cubits tall.....

02-14-2005, 04:08 AM	#1
John123 Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: u.s.a Posts: 18	Ali V Craig Craig debated Shabbir Ally over the course of four days.They debated on 4 issues : 1.Did Jesus of Nazareth Physically Raise From the Dead? - Shabir Ally & Craig 2.Who is the true Jesus, The Jesus of the Bible of the Jesus of the Quan - Shabir Ally & Craig 3.Who is the true Jesus, The Jesus of the Bible of the Jesus of the Quan - Shabir Ally & Craig 4.Concept of God in Islam and Christianity - Shabir Ally & Craig link :http://www.shabirally.com/debates.asp who in your opinion got throughly spanked?

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02-14-2005, 11:54 AM	#2
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	Are there transcripts of these (for free?)

02-14-2005, 05:44 PM	#4
Dirac_Delta Regular Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: England Posts: 115	"Ally never came close to disputing the coherence of Craig's conception of the Trinity. Others could argue that Craig's concept of the Trinity is radically different from the traditional understanding (where each separate personality is God, and yet all three are God - in Craig's view Jesus is just the yolk, or just the shell, not the whole egg), but this too I think would be irrelevant - it is almost a strawman argument. Even if Craig is in the minority with regard to his interpretation of the Trinity, the debate should focus on his interpretation. To try and force him to accept someone else's interpretation of the Trinity would be like trying to force a Qur'an-only Muslim to believe in the ahaadeeth so we could attack Islam on that front..." (previous post) I don't quite agree. They were dabating the concept of God in Christianity so I think it's relevant to estabilish exactly that concept. The problem is, of course, there are many diferent definitions of God in Christianity. I my opinion this means that the whole debate is meaningless. The issue should be: "Concept of God of Craig and of Ally".

02-14-2005, 08:48 PM	#5
Diogenes the Cynic Moderator - Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Twin Cities, Minnesota Posts: 4,639	I have nothing useful to say about the debate, I just wanted to say that reading the thread title keeps making me think of of Ali G. Hmmm...Craig vs, Ali G. Now THAT would be a debate worth watching.

02-14-2005, 09:36 PM	#6
Steven Carr Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: England Posts: 5,629	I spoke to Shabir Ally after a debate at Newcastle university. He believes that Adam was 90 feet tall! He based this on Sahih Bukhari Volume 4, Book 55, Number 543: Narrated Abu Huraira: The Prophet said, "Allah created Adam, making him 60 cubits tall.....

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