Equinox

STC wrote:

(referring to the number of decades spanning between events he'd consider "contemporaneous".)

I must also question that. I mean, that says that my neice is contemporaneous with Mark Twain. Wow, maybe Shania Twain, but come on...

It sounds like some Christians are willing to change the definitions of words if doing so allows them to wriggle out of a misstatement.

STC, maybe a short list of the documents you are referring to, along with the dates. I'll make it easy for you by starting:

50- 65 CE Paul (close to being contemporaneous, says almost nothing about Jesus' life)
70-110 CE Gospels (based on retold stories, not contemporaneous)
94 CE Josephus (TF added later, even if true, not contemporaneous)
~115 Pliny, Tacitus (not contemporaneous, only shows that Christians existed, not Jesus himself)
2nd Cent Lucian (not contemporaneous)

Let's try to get some earlier ones, so we can get up to "myriad".

Equinox

SlowTrainComing

You claimed that a Jew who accepted Christ as Savior and Messiah could no longer be called a Jew. You didn't differentiate religion/culture, you merely said he could no longer be called Jewish.

SlowTrainComing

If he accepted Christ as Savior and Messiah, then yes, he was. There is disagreement as to whether or not he did, though.

Jeffrey Gibson

Given your premises, the only thing that stands to reason is is that the Antiquities was written before Josephus died.

But more to the point, what specifically are these sources that you've come across? Will you please name them? Do they include Thackery, Mason, Feldmann, Schalit?


How many specifically is "many"?

More importantly, how do you square your not seeing any need to challenge what your sources say with what Josephus himslef says was the date of his writing of the Antiquities? -- to wit:

τὰ γὰρ βιβλία, ὅσα δὴ συγγραψάμενος καταλέλοιπεν, ἀναγινώσκεται παρ' ἡμῖν ἔτι καὶ νῦν καὶ πεπιστεύκαμεν ἐξ αὐτῶν, ὅτι Δανίηλος ὡμίλει τῷ θεῷ: οὐ γὰρ τὰ μέλλοντα μόνον προφητεύων διετέλει, καθάπερ καὶ οἱ ἄλλοι προφῆται, ἀλλὰ καὶ καιρὸν ὥριζεν, εἰς ὃν ταῦτα ἀποβήσεται:


Jeffrey

SlowTrainComing

If you're not going to accept them, and would rather grope desperately at the belief Jesus never existed, then I can't personally stop you. But don't push your definitions of the term onto me.

SlowTrainComing

Sigh.

SlowTrainComing

I cannot believe I'm now arguing whether Josephus' work was published in 94 A.D. or merely within 5 or so years of it.

Jeffrey Gibson

There is?? Where can we find this disagreement set out? Can you please point me to any scholarly discussion that argues that Josephus accepted Jesus as Messiah?

Jeffrey

Meatros

You are equivocating - I was *SPECIFICALLY* talking about the Josephus passage. It's strikingly obvious. Let's review - I said:

Is there any indication here that I was trying to suggest that Josephus suddenly morphed culturally speaking (or that such is possible?)?

No, so the principle of charity would dictate that I was obviously referring to religion, not ethnicity.

This is an absurd nitpick.

So, now that we are on the same page - are you sticking with your argument that anyone could think that the Josephus passage was not tampered with?

In short, are you sticking with this assertion:

Jeffrey Gibson

I take it the sigh comes from the fact that you can't support your claims that the CE 94 date has universal academic support. Or is it that you can't read Greek but wish you could?

Jeffrey