Freethought & Rationalism Archive

ziffel · 04-19-2009, 05:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aChristian

I would suggest you read some conservative Christian scholarship. I believe you will find much more reasonable answers with real evidence to back up the conclusions as opposed to the pathetic attempts to discredit the Bible that you will find from the pagan side.

That's the background I came out of ... now I'm looking for the truth

Thanks for all the answers. To clarify, yes, I'm looking for how the NT was canonized, and exactly how the books were chosen, which ones were discarded, who chose which were "inspired of God", that sort of thing.

Thanks for all the help!

andrewcriddle · 04-19-2009, 06:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

Quote:

Originally Posted by God Fearing Atheist

On the canonization of the NT (if that's what you mean formation of the New Testament), see Metzger's "The Canon of the New Testament" and Bruce's "The Canon of Scripture."

I think Bruce has been long superceded and now only finds support (and idolization) amongst conservative evangelical christians.

Hi Spin

Looking quickly through my copy of Bruce's "The Canon of Scripture." I can find little historical analysis that is influenced by Bruce's theological commitment and most of that is in the account of the OT. (Bruce's discussion of the appropriate role of the canon in modern Christianity is obviously influenced by his theology.)

Do you have any specific criticisms of the NT section of Bruce's book ?

Andrew Criddle

Doug Shaver · 04-19-2009, 06:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aChristian

I would suggest you read some conservative Christian scholarship. I believe you will find much more reasonable answers with real evidence to back up the conclusions

I have done that. What conservative Christians think of as "real evidence" is laughable.

God Fearing Atheist · 04-19-2009, 09:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

Quote:

Originally Posted by God Fearing Atheist

1) My comment was premised on ziffel wanting accounts of the canonization process. Commentaries are good for other stuff, but not for this.

2) Bruce's book says essentially the same thing as Metzgers, so...

Metzger gives substance (without Bruce's commitment). Scholarly commentaries provide a lotta stuff you mightn't expect.

spin

You sure you've read Bruce's book? Sure you've ever read a scholarly commentary?

spin · 04-19-2009, 02:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by God Fearing Atheist

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

Metzger gives substance (without Bruce's commitment). Scholarly commentaries provide a lotta stuff you mightn't expect.

spin

You sure you've read Bruce's book? Sure you've ever read a scholarly commentary?

Stop projecting.

spin

mountainman · 04-19-2009, 04:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ziffel

I'm looking to learn more about the formulation of the New Testament - preferably some reading material for a layperson. I'm currently reading some of Bart Ehrman's books (Misquoting Jesus, God's Problem, etc). I've taken a high level of interest in how things really went down around those times - and specifically how & when the NT was finally assembled.

From what I gather so far, virtually nothing about the process is what current society (Christians) generally thinks happened.

Here is an article which should suffice both for the layman's introduction
and for those who feel so inclined to research the field further. The article
is entitled The Development of the Canon of the New Testament

It is presented with all the books of the NT canon, and with some of the
books of the NT apocrypha. It also provides an index of the actual sources
inferred by "Biblical Historians" when they read "Ecclesiatical History" and
"In Preparation for the Gospels" and other works by Eusebius. The abbreviations
so indexed are the actual inferred sources of information in the development
of the NT canon.

Ig Po M Va JM Ir C T MC O E CS A D P V

spin · 04-19-2009, 07:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

I think Bruce has been long superceded and now only finds support (and idolization) amongst conservative evangelical christians.

Hi Spin

Looking quickly through my copy of Bruce's "The Canon of Scripture." I can find little historical analysis that is influenced by Bruce's theological commitment and most of that is in the account of the OT. (Bruce's discussion of the appropriate role of the canon in modern Christianity is obviously influenced by his theology.)

Do you have any specific criticisms of the NT section of Bruce's book?

If we are still dealing with the "formulation of the New Testament", all his datings are problematical.

spin

Toto · 04-20-2009, 12:30 AM

The Canon of Scripture (or via: amazon.co.uk) by Frederick Fyvie Bruce

The Canon of the New Testament: Its Origin, Development, and Significance (or via: amazon.co.uk) by Bruce M. Metzger

robto · 04-20-2009, 07:10 AM

My favorite is The Biblical Canon: Its Origin, Transmission, And Authority (or via: amazon.co.uk), By Lee Martin McDonald. At some points (e.g. his analysis of the Muratorian canon) he seems to have less of a pro-tradition bias than Metzger. But I agree Metzger is pretty good overall.

bacht · 04-20-2009, 08:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aChristian

I would suggest you read some conservative Christian scholarship. I believe you will find much more reasonable answers with real evidence to back up the conclusions as opposed to the pathetic attempts to discredit the Bible that you will find from the pagan side.

It wouldn't be necessary for pagans to "attempt to discredit the Bible" if believers stopped saying that the Bible is history. It is mythology with historical detail added. Believers have propagated the literal interpretation of scripture for close to two millenia. But they are unable or unwilling to view these writings with dispassionate scientific analysis.

It wouldn't be necessary to "discredit" the Bible if people didn't still believe in supernatural fairy-tales. To this day more people believe in spirits and immortality than empirical materialism. You're in the majority aChristian whether you see it or not.

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04-20-2009, 12:30 AM	#18
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	The Canon of Scripture (or via: amazon.co.uk) by Frederick Fyvie Bruce The Canon of the New Testament: Its Origin, Development, and Significance (or via: amazon.co.uk) by Bruce M. Metzger

04-20-2009, 07:10 AM	#19
robto Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Maryland Posts: 701	My favorite is The Biblical Canon: Its Origin, Transmission, And Authority (or via: amazon.co.uk), By Lee Martin McDonald. At some points (e.g. his analysis of the Muratorian canon) he seems to have less of a pro-tradition bias than Metzger. But I agree Metzger is pretty good overall.

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