andrewcriddle

Bruce's views on the date and authorship of at least some of the NT writings may well have been more conservative than those of the great majority of NT scholars.

It is IMO doubtful whether such views are expressed in his book on the Canon.

Andrew Criddle

Roger Pearse

B. Metzger's Canon of the NT quotes the primary sources which shed what light we have on the formation of the NT. These are worth looking at -- his comments on them not. F.F.Bruce is mainly concerned with the Old Testament, and I didn't think it was that good.

aChristian

In my opinion, dispassionate scientific analysis demonstrates that the Bible is accurate history and this implies that the supernatural is true. I agree that I am in the majority as far as belief in the supernatural, but Christians are a minority. However, God + 1 is a majority so I would agree with you in that sense.

spin

This statement seems to reflect a total lack of awareness of accurate history, so that any implications drawn from it would have no foundation whatsoever.

Assuming conclusions is par for your course. To communicate rationally with someone who doesn't share your beliefs, you need to establish common ground. Your failure to do so here means you functionally say nothing. Smartassedness is no substitute for content. You should realize that your lack of content is transparent to most readers here, so all one can do is to see your effort as self-stimulation, which shouldn't be done in public.


spin

Minimalist

And where is this "dispassionate scientific analysis? to be found" This is the typical claim of people with no grasp of reality.

IamJoseph

IMHO, the biggest problem facing the Gospels is that not a single contemporary document exists. This cannot be compared with other older religions, because the time factor for the Gospels was condusive to writings being commonplace, and surrounded by large archives from Rome and Greece, even from the Jews who were at this time in great persecution.

The issue becomes more problemetic that the Gospels claims a large array of writers [apostles], as opposed to one book by one person. Than we have no writings by or subscribed to Jesus, which are given as second hand reports, even by those who never met him [e.g. Paul].

In addition to the above, anyone studying Roman archives around this time, even 50 years prior to this time - will find a host of writings which make the same claims as does the Gospels vis avis the Jews - this includes the later christian blood libels - Jews were said to kidnap Greek and Roman citizens, fatten them up, then drain their blood for the passover service! [Apion, Chinadis, etc], and the disdain shown to an invisable God being barbarous and ubsurd - all being the commonplace attitude before the Gospels emerged.

There is no evidence of a trial by Rome of Jesus, and the notion that Barabus would be given in exchange is a total fabrication: Barabus was a Bin Laden type catch for Rome, and he was never freed. The notion of a conspiracy by Jewish preists also appears fictional, at least relating to what exactly could they have reported to Rome, while a decree of heresy was hovering over Judea. The preists could not say Jesus was claiming to be a Messiah - as the preists themselves and all of the Jews in Judea were already nominating 4 others as Messian candidates; the preists were themselves subject to being in violation of Rome's heresy decree because they too rejected Rome's demand of worshipping Rome's emperors as divine. The preists were killed off along with other Jews inside the temple, along with their entire families, making any claim of a conspiracy which Rome would harken to, out of the question.

In the gospel's favour is some sayings ascribed to Jesus which appear antithetical to Rome and Greece - which held such beliefs as it is permitted to kill off a child deemed not good looking. However at this time, the Greek religion was in decline and almost negated, while Rome was facing growing rejection of its own religion all around the empire: it was a time when a new religion was utmost required by Rome, and the Gospels appears to have incorporated all of Rome and Greece's preferred stories: a pre-dating disdain for the Jews, the elimination of all laws unacceptable to Rome and Greece - image worship was sanctioned, and the dietary, circumsizion and all other laws in the Hebrew bible was fullfilled away.

Unless any disputing evidence is available, or comes up in the future, the lack of any contemporary writings - and the archives already pre-existing, says the Gospels is a work of fiction perpertrated by Romans and Greeks.

Roger Pearse

Not to me, it doesn't. If you look in the Mithras/Attis thread, you'll see people scrabbling around for facts about Attis and the Taurobolium which -- on this logic -- must be fiction.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

Doug Shaver

Hmmm. Lemme guess. Any scientist who disagrees with you is not dispassionate. Have I got that right?

mountainman

At a specific epoch at which time it was necessary to prepare
for the Greek speaking Hellenistic eastern Roman empire how
it became necessary to throw away Zeus and Apollo and Asclepius
and take up the cross and follow the centralised state Jesus cult.

The new testament canon was designed and fabricated by wicked men
who had no regard for the antiquity of the Hellenistic civilisation.
They stole and pilfered literature willy-nilly from disparate extant
sources for the collage of the new state god. One who would
not rise against them, and who advised everyone to keep paying
monetary tribute to the Pontifex Maximus in the form of Caesar.

It was never supposed to be true.

Mithra inscriptions associated with Sassanid Persia

from p.120

(5) The STATE RELIGION and the TEMPLES
=======================================

There were house-fires, village-fires and provincial-fires.
Mithra is associated with the dedications (p.120)


"Each of the great temples ... which were established in the provinces,
had a considerable body of priests under the direction of 'a mobadh'
(ie: Magus of the Magi) to serve it. "Ehrbadhs" KEPT WATCH OVER
the ceremonies of divine worship, assisted by lower clergy,
each of whom had his special task.

Many inscriptions attest to the institution of buring FIRES
for the souls of princes and other great personages.
(eg: the major temple in Anahita at Stakhr.

The Mazdean FIRE-TEMPLES were distinctive:

The fire-temples conform to one type:
a square building, surmounted by a cupola,
within which thw sacred fire was kept burning
upon an altar in a room that remained completely dark,
so that it could not be touched by the light of the sun.
[Herzfeld, Arch. Hist of Iran, p.88]

Cambridge Ancient History, Volume XII
The Imperial Crisis and Recovery (193 to 324 CE)
Chapter 5: SASSANID PERSIA
The Sassanian Empire: Political History

Where are the inscriptions to the First Century Jesus Christ?
Where are the inscriptions to the Second Century Jesus Christ?
Where are the inscriptions to the Third Century Jesus Christ?

Where is any evidence of the Early Christian "Epigraphic Habit" ????

Aside from the papryi fragments what is the earliest NT Codex?
There are all from the fourth century!!

What bits of the NT canon can be said with certainty to have existed
in the second or third century, and by what authority is this certitude based?
Or does the only evidence of the formation of the new testament canon
exist in the form of literary assertions from a later epoch?

ripley

May I ask why the papyri fragments don't count?