Freethought & Rationalism Archive

No Robots · 04-04-2008, 08:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roger Pearse

Not one smile? What a humourless lot we all are!

(Pssst! Comedians don't generally blame the audience for not laughing

)

Sitamun · 04-04-2008, 08:31 AM

Roger, would you prefer the term conception by divine intervention?

I have no qualms using that instead of "virgin birth" in fact I prefer it. Also please remember that I never said that the stories were identical. I use wiki for common knowledge references. In all honesty I've always read myths from books not the web. I also wouldn't consider tour egypt an "amateur site". I could email all well known egyptologists for their takes on the myths, but really why would they bother when I can get the info in plenty other places.

Amaleq13 · 04-04-2008, 08:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roger Pearse

Um. Just incidentally, wikipedia isn't source we can really rely on, you know.

While I certainly agree that one should check the original sources cited for any given wiki article, a recent study suggests it is no less reliable than Encyclopedia Britannica.

It is a good idea to note at the top of any given wiki article whether there is a warning about the contents being "controversial" or lacking sufficient citations.

IOW, it is just as good a place to start one's investigation into a subject as Encyclopedia Britannica but it should generally not be the end of or sum total of one's investigation into a subject.

Roger Pearse · 04-04-2008, 08:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sitamun

Roger, would you prefer the term conception by divine intervention?

I have no qualms using that instead of "virgin birth" in fact I prefer it.

I'm concerned only with the issue of 'virgin birth'. I think that we have established that this whole Horus was born of a virgin thing is highly dubious, even at this stage.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

Roger Pearse · 04-04-2008, 09:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amaleq13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roger Pearse

Um. Just incidentally, wikipedia isn't source we can really rely on, you know.

While I certainly agree that one should check the original sources cited for any given wiki article, a recent study suggests it is no less reliable than Encyclopedia Britannica.

Um. After which, surely, one need pay no mind to anything the authors of that 'study' choose to say? We all know how Wikipedia is compiled; by readers, not by experts. Don't we all know of examples of crass bias and falsehood, especially on matters of political or religious controversy? (Just try looking at some of the stuff on Macedonia!)

Quote:

IOW, it is just as good a place to start one's investigation into a subject as Encyclopedia Britannica but it should generally not be the end of or sum total of one's investigation into a subject.

The contributors to EB at least were held to some standards. But Wikipedia is, of course, rather more accessible.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

Roger Pearse · 04-04-2008, 09:05 AM

Acharya S has this:

Concerning the Paschal Chronicle, Charles Dupuis relates:

…the author of the Chronicle of Alexandria…expresses himself in the following words: "The Egyptians have consecrated up to this day the child-birth of a virgin and the nativity of her son, who is exposed in a 'crib' to the adoration of the people…"

Another important source who cites the Paschal Chronicle and mentions Isis's virginity is James Bonwick in Egyptian Belief and Modern Thought:

In an ancient Christian work, called the "Chronicle of Alexandria," occurs the following: "Watch how Egypt has consecrated the childbirth of a virgin, and the birth of her son, who was exposed in a crib to the adoration of her people…"

The author of Christian Mythology Unveiled cites the "most ancient chronicles of Alexandria, which "testify as follows":

"To this day, Egypt has consecrated the pregnancy of a virgin, and the nativity of her son, whom they annually present in a cradle, to the adoration of the people; and when king Ptolemy, three hundred and fifty years before our Christian era, demanded of the priests the significance of this religious ceremony, they told him it was a mystery."

Charles Francois Dupuis wrote in French in the 18th century, apparently without footnotes (his book is online at Archive.org). An English translation exists, also unfootnoted.

Bonwick is on google books, but I cannot access him. Can anyone, and find out if he gives a reference? Or does he just say the same as Dupuis?

CMU looks like a rehash of the others; 'most ancient Chronicles', meaning the Chronicon Pascale (a 7th century text).

I have a theory as to what we are actually dealing with. I would guess that there is no explicit reference to Isis or Horus; but that this forms part of the standard "pagan and Jewish prophecies and prefigurings of Christ" stuff that one finds in Byzantine writers. These are often somewhat bogus; but, in any event, no evidence of borrowing.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

Toto · 04-04-2008, 09:10 AM

Riddle of Resurrection: "Dying and Rising Gods" in the Ancient Near East (Coniectanea Biblica, Old Testament, 50) (Coniectanea Biblica, Old Testament, 50) (or via: amazon.co.uk) by Tryggve N. D. Mettinger is intended as a counter to Frazer.

There are some comments by Neil Godfrey here.

Toto · 04-04-2008, 09:14 AM

I didn't find Bonwick on googlebooks, but I found this exceprt:

Isis as: Our Lady, Queen of Heaven, Mother of God, Saviour of Souls, Immaculate Virgin ...

andrewcriddle · 04-04-2008, 11:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roger Pearse

From here I find the usual suspects invoked.

Acharya S, from here, crediting one Joseph McCabe (Joseph McCabe, "The Story of Religious Controversy," Stratford Co, (1929)). (A seemingly irrelevant quote from J.G.Frazer follows).

"Whatever we make of the original myth…Isis seems to have been originally a virgin (or, perhaps, sexless) goddess, and in the later period of Egyptian religion she was again considered a virgin goddess, demanding very strict abstinence from her devotees. It is at this period, apparently, that the birthday of Horus was annually celebrated, about December 25th, in the temples. As both Macrobius and the Christian writer [of the "Paschal Chronicle"] say, a figure of Horus as a baby was laid in a manger, in a scenic reconstruction of a stable, and a statue of Isis was placed beside it. Horus was, in a sense, the Savior of mankind. He was their avenger against the powers of darkness; he was the light of the world. His birth-festival was a real Christmas before Christ."

Now I don't have Macrobius on hand. Can anyone look in this?

Macrobius is online in Latin Book 1 is here http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/...rnalia/1*.html I think the relevant passage is from chapter XVIII

Quote:

Hae autem aetatum diversitates ad solem referuntur, ut parvulus videatur hiemali solstitio, qualem Aegyptii proferunt ex adyto die certa, quod tunc brevissimo die veluti parvus et infans videatur: exinde autem procedentibus augmentis aequinoctio vernali similiter atque adolescentis adipiscitur vires, figuraque iuvenis ornatur: postea statuitur eius aetas plenissima effigie barbae solstitio aestivo, quo tempore summum sui consequitur augmentum: exinde per diminutiones veluti senescenti quarta forma deus figuratur.

My Latin is too weak to do an immediate translation but it would seem to be speaking of a pagan Egyptian ceremony of the birth of the sun rather than explicitly of Horus.
There is more discussion of this at http://iidb.infidels.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=236154

Andrew Criddle

Roger Pearse · 04-04-2008, 12:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

Quote:

Hae autem aetatum diversitates ad solem referuntur, ut parvulus videatur hiemali solstitio, qualem Aegyptii proferunt ex adyto die certa, quod tunc brevissimo die veluti parvus et infans videatur: exinde autem procedentibus augmentis aequinoctio vernali similiter atque adolescentis adipiscitur vires, figuraque iuvenis ornatur: postea statuitur eius aetas plenissima effigie barbae solstitio aestivo, quo tempore summum sui consequitur augmentum: exinde per diminutiones veluti senescenti quarta forma deus figuratur.

My Latin is too weak to do an immediate translation but it would seem to be speaking of a pagan Egyptian ceremony of the birth of the sun rather than explicitly of Horus.

Thank you Andrew. I'd forgotten that Bill Thayer had the Latin online. My Latin is weak too but I'll have a go at a bit before I jump in the bath. Treating the colons as full-stops:

"However these various things are related to the age of the sun, as it seems small at the winter solstice.

[qualem] the Egyptians bring out of a temple on a certain day, because at that time on the shortest day it seems as if small and infant.

But next after the increases have appeared, at the spring equinox similarly it gains the strength of youth and is honoured with a statue of a young man.

Afterwards ... [aetas eius plenissima] a bearded statue is set up on a stage for the summer solstice, at which time it achieves its greatest increase.

After that by diminutions the god appears as if in the fourth form of one growing old."

Drat, my bath is overflowing. That's mostly rubbish -- anyone like to straighten the syntax?

Roger

04-04-2008, 09:05 AM	#46
Roger Pearse Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: N/A Posts: 4,370	Acharya S has this: Concerning the Paschal Chronicle, Charles Dupuis relates: …the author of the Chronicle of Alexandria…expresses himself in the following words: "The Egyptians have consecrated up to this day the child-birth of a virgin and the nativity of her son, who is exposed in a 'crib' to the adoration of the people…" Another important source who cites the Paschal Chronicle and mentions Isis's virginity is James Bonwick in Egyptian Belief and Modern Thought: In an ancient Christian work, called the "Chronicle of Alexandria," occurs the following: "Watch how Egypt has consecrated the childbirth of a virgin, and the birth of her son, who was exposed in a crib to the adoration of her people…" The author of Christian Mythology Unveiled cites the "most ancient chronicles of Alexandria, which "testify as follows": "To this day, Egypt has consecrated the pregnancy of a virgin, and the nativity of her son, whom they annually present in a cradle, to the adoration of the people; and when king Ptolemy, three hundred and fifty years before our Christian era, demanded of the priests the significance of this religious ceremony, they told him it was a mystery." Charles Francois Dupuis wrote in French in the 18th century, apparently without footnotes (his book is online at Archive.org). An English translation exists, also unfootnoted. Bonwick is on google books, but I cannot access him. Can anyone, and find out if he gives a reference? Or does he just say the same as Dupuis? CMU looks like a rehash of the others; 'most ancient Chronicles', meaning the Chronicon Pascale (a 7th century text). I have a theory as to what we are actually dealing with. I would guess that there is no explicit reference to Isis or Horus; but that this forms part of the standard "pagan and Jewish prophecies and prefigurings of Christ" stuff that one finds in Byzantine writers. These are often somewhat bogus; but, in any event, no evidence of borrowing. All the best, Roger Pearse

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04-04-2008, 08:31 AM	#42
Sitamun Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Florida Posts: 48	Roger, would you prefer the term conception by divine intervention? I have no qualms using that instead of "virgin birth" in fact I prefer it. Also please remember that I never said that the stories were identical. I use wiki for common knowledge references. In all honesty I've always read myths from books not the web. I also wouldn't consider tour egypt an "amateur site". I could email all well known egyptologists for their takes on the myths, but really why would they bother when I can get the info in plenty other places.

04-04-2008, 09:10 AM	#47
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	Riddle of Resurrection: "Dying and Rising Gods" in the Ancient Near East (Coniectanea Biblica, Old Testament, 50) (Coniectanea Biblica, Old Testament, 50) (or via: amazon.co.uk) by Tryggve N. D. Mettinger is intended as a counter to Frazer. There are some comments by Neil Godfrey here.

04-04-2008, 09:14 AM	#48
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	I didn't find Bonwick on googlebooks, but I found this exceprt: Isis as: Our Lady, Queen of Heaven, Mother of God, Saviour of Souls, Immaculate Virgin ...

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