Freethought & Rationalism Archive

bacht · 08-20-2009, 01:44 PM

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Originally Posted by No Robots

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Originally Posted by bacht

Pedantic
–adjective
1. ostentatious in one's learning.
2. overly concerned with minute details or formalisms, esp. in teaching.

If, instead of saying "inane pedantic b.s.", I had said "shinola", my meaning would still be clear and we wouldn't need to have this discussion.

I see. Thanks for sharing

No Robots · 08-20-2009, 01:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bacht

I see. Thanks for sharing

Just trying to keep things moving along.

aa5874 · 08-20-2009, 03:24 PM

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Originally Posted by PhilVaz

......Jeffery Jay Lowder of Internet Infidels: “There is simply nothing intrinsically improbable about a historical Jesus; the New Testament alone (or at least portions of it) are reliable enough to provide evidence of a historical Jesus. On this point, it is important to note that even G.A. Wells, who until recently was the champion of the christ-myth hypothesis, now accepts the historicity of Jesus on the basis of 'Q'.” ("Josh McDowell's 'Evidence' for Jesus," also Wells The Jesus Myth [Open Court, 1999])

There is nothing in the New Testament that shows Jesus was only human. The Church writers denied that Jesus was only human.

In the Gospel of John, Jesus was called the Word who was God and that he created the world and everything in the world.

Jeffrey Jay Lowder must have either not read or do not understand the New Testament or any writings of the Church.

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhilVaz

Secular historian Will Durant: “The Christian evidence for Christ begins with the letters ascribed to Saint Paul....No one has questioned the existence of Paul, or his repeated meetings with Peter, James, and John; and Paul enviously admits that these men had known Christ in his flesh. The accepted epistles frequently refer to the Last Supper and the Crucifixion....in essentials the synoptic gospels agree remarkably well, and form a consistent portrait of Christ....no one reading these scenes can doubt the reality of the figure behind them. That a few simple men should in one generation have invented so powerful and appealing a personality, so loft an ethic and so inspiring a vision of human brotherhood, would be a miracle far more incredible than any recorded in the Gospel.” ("Ceasar and Christ," volume 3 of Story of Civilization)

Paul is the worst candidate as evidence for a human only Jesus. The Church writers could not even identify what Paul actually wrote and when he wrote them. The Pauline writers did not ever claim to see a human only Jesus before he was dead.

A Pauline writer claimed he and over 500 people saw Jesus in a resurrected state. You can forget about the Pauline writers, they never saw Jesus on earth but they heard from him after he ascended to heaven.

Paul's Jesus was some kind of Ghost.

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Originally Posted by PhilVaz

Graham Stanton of Cambridge: “Today, nearly all historians, whether Christians or not, accept that Jesus existed and that the gospels contain plenty of valuable evidence which has to be weighed and assessed critically. There is general agreement that, with the possible exception of Paul, we know far more about Jesus of Nazareth than about any first or second century Jewish or pagan religious teacher.” (The Gospels and Jesus)

Graham Stranton has supplied bogus information. It is the reverse. There is plenty of information that Jesus was a fiction story fabricated with an out-of-context mis-translation of Isaiah 7.14 which was fulfilled in Isaiah 8.3 hundreds of years before Jesus was fabricated.

And it is completely false that a lot is known about Jesus as human when even his supposed disciples, Matthew and John, claimed respectively that he was the offspring of the Holy Ghost of God and the creator of the world.

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhilVaz

Bishop N.T. Wright: “It is quite difficult to know where to start, because actually the evidence for Jesus is so massive that, as a historian, I want to say we have got almost as much good evidence for Jesus as for anyone in the ancient world....the evidence fits so well with what we know of the Judaism of the period....that I think there are hardly any historians today, in fact I don't know of any historians today [aside from G.A. Wells, etc], who doubt the existence of Jesus....No Jewish, Christian, atheist, or agnostic scholars have ever taken that [proposition] seriously since. It is quite clear that in fact Jesus is a very, very well documented character of real history. So I think that question can be put to rest.” ("The Self-Revelation of God in Human History" from There Is A God by Antony Flew and Roy Abraham Varghese [HarperOne, 2007])

There is no massive evidence anywhere that Jesus was only human. N.T. Wright is ridiculous, he cannot be an historian.

Where is the massive evidence? It is not in Josephus, Tacitus, Suetonius, or Pliny.

Who are these people that make bogus claims that can be easily refuted?

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhilVaz

Robert Van Voorst: “Contemporary New Testament scholars have typically viewed their [i.e. Jesus-mythers] arguments as so weak or bizarre that they relegate them to footnotes, or often ignore them completely....The theory of Jesus' nonexistence is now effectively dead as a scholarly question....Biblical scholars and classical historians now regard it as effectively refuted.” (Jesus Outside the New Testament, page 6, 14, 16)

Contemporary New Testament Scholars have not even presented any corroborative source for a human only Jesus.

The proposal that Jesus was only human can not be supported by any source of antiquity external of the Church. The proposal that Jesus was only human cannot be supported by the New Testament and the Church writings.

The Church claimed Jesus was a God, the Word, the creator of the world.

Once Matthew 1.18, Matthew 17.2, Luke 1.35, Mark 16.6 and Acts 1.9 are read, it will be clear that Jesus was not human. Jesus Christ was some kind of Ghost of God. He floated through the clouds.

Now, if there was really massive evidence for a human only Jesus, then the massive evidence would have been PLASTERED all over the world for last 2000 years, but this has never happened, only that Jesus was a God, the Word, who created the world.

All the so-called historians you have mentioned are either absurdly naive or blatantly bogus.

There is simply no massive evidence anywhere that Jesus was only human.

Chaucer · 08-21-2009, 08:06 AM

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Originally Posted by aa5874

There is simply no massive evidence anywhere that Jesus was only human.

That's just your own faith talking.

Chaucer

spin · 08-22-2009, 01:51 AM

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Originally Posted by Chaucer

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

There is simply no massive evidence anywhere that Jesus was only human.

That's just your own faith talking.

Such self-irony is sad.

spin

aa5874 · 08-22-2009, 09:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chaucer

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

There is simply no massive evidence anywhere that Jesus was only human.

That's just your own faith talking.

Chaucer

And what is the evidence needed for faith?

Nothing.

The evidence for faith and Jesus Christ is identical.

They need need nothing, no evidence.

Hebrews 11:1 -

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Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

An historical Jesus was not necessary at all for people to have faith that there an entity on earth called Jesus.. Marcion presented the Phantom Jesus 1900 years ago. Marcion told his followers that Jesus was not real at all but was a phantom and people believed him and laughed at those who believed Jesus was God and man.

Justin Martyr in First Apology 58

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And, as we said before, the devils put forward Marcion of Pontus, who is even now teaching men to deny that God is the maker of all things in heaven and on earth, and that the Christ predicted by the prophets is His Son, and preaches another god besides the Creator of all, and likewise another son. And this man many have believed, as if he alone knew the truth, and laugh at us, though they have no proof of what they say, but are carried away irrationally as lambs by a wolf, and become the prey of atheistical doctrines, and of devils...

It was plausible in antiquity for Ghosts to appear to and converse with people. Jesus was acceptable as the Holy Ghost of God.

Now, my faith is compatible with the evidence that is not seen, the evidence that cannot be found.

Until evidence is seen or found, I have faith (the evidence of things not seen) that Jesus was non-existent in the 1st century.

After 2000 years your faith is not compatible with the evidence, your faith is hopeless.

Chaucer · 08-22-2009, 10:07 AM

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Originally Posted by spin

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chaucer

That's just your own faith talking.

Such self-irony is sad.

spin

I must compliment you on your fine mirror.

Chaucer

Chaucer · 08-22-2009, 10:08 AM

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Originally Posted by aa5874

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chaucer

That's just your own faith talking.

Chaucer

And what is the evidence needed for faith?

Nothing.

Which is why it applies so well to what you've been saying.

Chaucer

aa5874 · 08-22-2009, 11:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chaucer

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

And what is the evidence needed for faith?

Nothing.

Which is why it applies so well to what you've been saying.

Chaucer

That is so true. There is nothing at all for me to say but to show you what is written in the NT and the Church writings.

Now, don't say anything just look at Matthew 1.18

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Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.

Mark 9:2 -

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And after six days Jesus taketh with him Peter, and James, and John, and leadeth them up into an high mountain apart by themselves: and he was transfigured before them.

Mark 16:6 -

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And he saith unto them, Be not affrighted: Ye seek Jesus of Nazareth, which was crucified: he is risen; he is not here: behold the place where they laid him.

1Cor 15:4 -

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And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures..[/b]

Acts 1:9 -

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And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.

I have nothing to say about the MYTH called Jesus Christ. The NT and Church writers said everything.

1Th 4:16 -

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For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first.

Chaucer · 08-22-2009, 11:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chaucer

Which is why it applies so well to what you've been saying.

Chaucer

That is so true. There is nothing at all for me to say but to show you what is written in the NT and the Church writings.

Now, don't say anything just look at Matthew 1.18

Mark 9:2 -

Mark 16:6 -

1Cor 15:4 -

Acts 1:9 -

I have nothing to say about the MYTH called Jesus Christ. The NT and Church writers said everything.

1Th 4:16 -

Quote:

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first.

You're like that "dining room table" =================>

======> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nYlZiWK2Iy8

Chaucer

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