Freethought & Rationalism Archive

mountainman · 05-14-2007, 06:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by J-D

And you have given no disproof of rival hypotheses, and you have given no reason for anybody to prefer your hypothesis to rival hypotheses. You haven't even given a clear indication that you understand what a rival hypothesis is.

MJ Theories - what are the postulates?

HJ: self-explanatory, assertion or postulate?

J-D · 05-14-2007, 07:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

MJ Theories - what are the postulates?

HJ: self-explanatory, assertion or postulate?

Nothing there (or on this thread) constitutes a response to this challenge. A declarative statement or statements, of comparable length and detail to the analogue given there, is what you seem incapable of.

jgibson000 · 05-14-2007, 08:13 PM

Hmm. After seeing Pete not only list Domitian's reign as 69-79, but also state that Domitian undertook a campaign of persecution against Christians I asked:

Quote:

Ummm ... what??? Domitian was emperor when?? And what persecution of Christians did he actually undertake?

And in reply, I received this from Pete:

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

I have attempted to discuss this citations register without luck.
Essentially the register attempts to represent all occassions in
the purported rise of christianity over the first three centuries
where information about christianity is clearly and openly said
to be evident to the administration and/or citizens of the Roman
empire.

The citation you question above is one of a group of citations
which relate to the supposed "christian persecutions" under
Roman emperors. They either happened or they didn't.

It is expected that each and every citation listed on this register
will be shown to have the same historical integrity as is now
possessed by all such citations on the same register from the
first century. (ie: they are fraudulent, or forgeries, etc).

At the end of the day, in all honesty and seriousness that is
due to an examination of history, we must return to the
possibility that Constantine may have created christianity,
and tendered a pseudo-history in his "Constantine Bibles",
supported by the appropriate editorial presentations of
Eusebius, in lavish and expensive, but despotic, grandeur.

Can anyone tell me how the above in any way answers my questions to Pete about why Pete gives wrong dates for Domitian as emperor and attributes to him a persecution he never actually undertook?

And can any one also tell me why Pete seems almost always to dodge the questions I ask him?

Jeffrey Gibson

mountainman · 05-14-2007, 08:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jgibson000

Hmm. After seeing Pete not only list Domitian's reign as 69-79, but also state that Domitian undertook a campaign of persecution against Christians I asked:

And in reply, I received this from Pete:

Can anyone tell me how the above in any way answers my questions to Pete about why Pete gives wrong dates for Domitian as emperor and attributes to him a persecution he never actually undertook?

And can any one also tell me why Pete seems almost always to dodge the questions I ask him?

Jeffrey Gibson

According to many historians, Jews and Christians
were heavily persecuted toward the end of Domitian's reign.
[1] Smallwood, E.M. Classical Philology 51, 1956.

You do understand I am simply collecting stubs of data?
Last time I looked there were people claiming (either wrongly
or rightly or in a fractal basin boundary between these two
options) that persecutions (of christians) may have
occurred under this emperor. So I listed this. That's all.

mountainman · 05-14-2007, 08:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by J-D

Nothing there (or on this thread) constitutes a response to this challenge. A declarative statement or statements, of comparable length and detail to the analogue given there, is what you seem incapable of.

OK. Now I do not follow you. What do you mean?
Can you give a small example of what you perceive
as "being required".

However, you yourself appear to have underestimated the
role of postulates in all past and present theories of the history
of christianity. Those threads above list perhaps upwards
of at least half-a-dozen separate and independent postulates
required to get either an HJ or an MJ theory off the ground.

Moreover, there is no evidence of christianity external to its
own "literary tradition" prior to Nicaea, otherwise it could have
been cited.

The theory I am presenting has one and one only postulate:
Eusebius wrote fiction under order from his boss.

Where's Occam when you need him?

J-D · 05-14-2007, 08:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

OK. Now I do not follow you. What do you mean?

I shall try to break this down into smaller steps for you, to make it easier for you to follow.

Part of what I said in that earlier post was this:

The historical question we are concerned with is this: 'How did Christianity originate?'

You are offering a possible answer to this question, which may be summarised thus: 'It was consciously invented in the fourth century at the direction of the Emperor Constantine, for his political advantage, and all records of or references to it which allegedly date from before the age of Constantine were fabricated at that time as part of the deliberate invention of the new religion.'

Do you agree so far? If so, then I will proceed to the next step.

Remember, at this stage I'm only asking you a simple Yes/No question: Is the formulation I offered above a fair statement of your hypothesis?

Yes or No?

jgibson000 · 05-14-2007, 09:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

According to many historians, Jews and Christians
were heavily persecuted toward the end of Domitian's reign.
[1] Smallwood, E.M. Classical Philology 51, 1956.

Could you please quote Smallwood on this matter?

Quote:

You do understand I am simply collecting stubs of data?
Last time I looked there were people claiming (either wrongly
or rightly or in a fractal basin boundary between these two
options) that persecutions (of christians) may have
occurred under this emperor.

You said nothing about "may have".

Quote:

So I listed this. That's all.

No that's not all. You also listed, as I've now twice pointed out, Domitian's dates as emperor as 69-79. Where did you get that?

JG

mountainman · 05-14-2007, 09:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jgibson000

Could you please quote Smallwood on this matter?

You said nothing about "may have".

No that's not all. You also listed, as I've now twice pointed out, Domitian's dates as emperor as 69-79. Where did you get that?

JG

Thanks. Typo.

What other persecutions occurred?

1st - 075 - Domitian (emp:081-096) "Persecution debated"
2nd - 177 - Letter "Gallic christians" - Martydom of Blandina & Pothinus
3rd - 202 - The "edict of Septimius Severus"
3rd - 248 - Philip Arabus, turns christian for the millenial games of Rome.
3rd - 250 - Emperor Decius - perhaps 50 executions (250/251)
3rd - 255? - Galienus' decree (via H.E.); emperor 253-258
4th - 304? Diocletian "persecution of Egypt"

mountainman · 05-15-2007, 03:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by J-D

I shall try to break this down into smaller steps for you, to make it easier for you to follow.

Part of what I said in that earlier post was this:

The historical question we are concerned with is this: 'How did Christianity originate?'

You are offering a possible answer to this question, which may be summarised thus: 'It was consciously invented in the fourth century at the direction of the Emperor Constantine, for his political advantage, and all records of or references to it which allegedly date from before the age of Constantine were fabricated at that time as part of the deliberate invention of the new religion.'

Do you agree so far? If so, then I will proceed to the next step.

Remember, at this stage I'm only asking you a simple Yes/No question: Is the formulation I offered above a fair statement of your hypothesis?

Yes or No?

YES. Noting that of course some records were not fabricated
but simply conscripted to the publication, such as the Hebrew
Bible (Greek LXX), which had been extant in the empire as a
text for almost 6 centuries.

Please proceed.

jgibson000 · 05-15-2007, 04:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

Thanks. Typo.

What other persecutions occurred?

1st - 075 - Domitian (emp:081-096) "Persecution debated"

If your attributing the wrong dates to Domitian was a typo, rather than a demonstration of your lack of acquaintance with the very history you seem to want us to think you are aquainted with, what explains the continuance of the claim that Domitian's persecution of Christians took place in 75 CE?

And where is the quotation from Smallwood that I asked you to provide that shows, as you seem to have claimed, that she is one who argues for a persecution by Domitian of Christians?

JG

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