Elijah

He had to sacrifice his life and ask others to follow that example, in a community that believed in the Resurrection of the dead. That is all he had to do; others after him had to confuse a vision or ideological reference for an actual resurrection. But that is still going from the concept presented in the Gospels. If I had to go from a clean slate and we are sticking in the realm of possibility then I don't know of another way for that belief to have started.

edit: I'd go with faked death if I had to come up with another alternative that was removed from what the Gospels said.

TedM

Ok. I'm having a problem going from A to B. First, for him to have had followers willing to take their own lives, I would think he would have been charismatic. Would you agree? I would think also that he would have taught something about the resurrection. I also would think his followers would have been killed for a reason. What reason would that have been? Finally, I would think if they were killed early on, that would have gone a long way to discourage new folks from signing up. Agree there would have had to have been a vision or idealogical reference somewhere along the line that was persuasive enough to get folks to sign up despite being targets.


Faking death from crucifixion? That doesn't sound likely. However, the gospels DO say he died somewhat quickly. I always thought that was curious.

Elijah

No I don't think charisma needs to be included into the equation because I don't think he pulled the group together himself. Again I'm going from the Gospel but he was given followers by John, a prominent religious figure in the area who tires to play Elijah and identifies the true king of Israel. Once he makes that claim then it is up to the Pharisees to prove him wrong, which they try to do.
He argued for it but it was a common belief at the time.
Recognizing a dead man as your lord.
It depends on how they died. Imagine in the Colosseum you've seen thousands of people face death but suddenly you have a group who thinks that salvation comes from the imitation of that act. It's going to be pretty convincing advertisement that what they are preaching is legit.
I don't think it is likely either, but was just trying for the next logical possibility, if we were looking for something other then what the Gospels say.

Horatio Parker

Because he represents an eternal truth.

aa5874

Most reasonable people may have accepted the earth was Flat and did NOT revolve around the Sun.

Now, this a discussion. I do NOT have to agree with the premise.

We have a writer or writers called Paul, a Jew and Pharisee who claimed that Jesus, the Son of God and the Messianic Ruler was NOT dead.

If Jesus did exist and was crucified but did NOT resurrect how did the Pauline writer, A PHARISEE, manage to FOOL people "all over" the Roman Empire that a man who was SCARCELY known in some little village was resurrected and was SEEN PUBLICLY Hanging from a CROSS--DEAD--in Jerusalem.

How would PILATE EXPLAIN to TIBERIUS that the very Jesus, the Messianic ruler, that he had crucified was SEEN by OVER 500 people and was NOT dead??

Once we ASSUME Jesus was a man and that he was crucified and actually died then the PAULINE writings simply do NOT make any sense.

Paul was a Jew and a PHARISEE Publicly BOASTING even in ROME that Jesus the Messianic ruler and seed of David was STILL ALIVE and that he was LORD and that every KNEE, the Emperors of Rome, should BOW to the name of Jesus..

Pilate had Jesus EXECUTED by crucifixion.

Paul, the Pharisee went to ROME, Corinth, Jerusalem, Galatia, Ephesus, Colosse, Philippi, Thessalonica and PUBLICLY DECLARED JESUS STILL LIVED and was the Messianic ruler.

And Paul the Jew and PHARISEE claimed HE PERSONALLY SAW Jesus ALIVE.

How did the Jew and PHARISEE, PAUL, manage to pull off such an IDIOTIC thing???

Paul, the Jew and Pharisee should have kept quiet and NOT alert the Romans.

Did they NOT SEE the DEAD DUCK called Jesus NAILED to the Cross???

WHEN did the MANHUNT for Jesus begin after Paul, the Jew and Pharisee claimed Jesus, the seed of David, was STILL LIVING???

There was NO MANHUNT for Jesus, the seed of David and Messianic ruler.

If one ASSUMES Jesus, the Messianic ruler was human and was EXECUTED by the Romans then the Pauline writings do NOT make sense.

How in the world could a Jew, A Pharisee, tell the people of ROMAN EMPIRE that JESUS, the prophesied Messianic ruler was STILL ALIVE???

Either Pilate did NOT EXECUTE Jesus, the Messianic ruler or Paul, the Jew and Pharisee was a LIAR.

The Jesus story makes NO sense whatsoever if it is presumed Jesus, the Messianic ruler, was human and was crucified by the Romans and Paul was a Jew and Pharisee who claimed Jesus was STILL ALIVE.

It is EXPECTED that Paul and the Jesus cult would have been Massacred BY the Romans since 37-41 CE if they ever went PUBLIC and claimed Jesus LIVED when he was supposed to be dead.

The Jesus story is SIMPLY explained as originating in the 2nd century. That is all. Someone wrote a story in the 2nd century and people Believed it and the story EVOLVED into a Religion.

GenesisNemesis

You're working under the assumption that myths only arise because someone did or said something. That is not the case. But in any case, in the more superstitious era of the bronze age, it's not surprising at all that someone may have claimed that someone as influential as Jesus was resurrected, when in fact he was not, because human beings are fundamentally irrational creatures. I don't even really see why this question is brought up by Christians- according to Christians, without god everyone is amoral. So, according to that notion, it would make sense that someone would lie about something as major as this.

Minimalist

And that would be what?

Toto

Yes it is. Crucifixion was the punishment for slaves who rebelled, or military leaders of the opposition, or important political opponents, where the government needed to make a political statement. or let a lot of other people know what might happen to them. A wandering preacher would have to do something much more serious than just offending someone to make it worth the while of the governor to bother with crucifixion.

Even John the Baptist was just beheaded. Probably a lot of other unimportant annoying people were just executed or banished.



If they thought that he might be the Messiah, they would have thought differently after he was crucified. At that point, they would know that they were wrong.

And - if the followers of Jesus could mine the Hebrew Scriptures for references to the Messiah and fit them onto a mere crucified preacher, why would they even need the preacher? They could have mined the Scriptures to create the crucified wisdom teacher, their substitute for the would be Messiahs who failed them in the Jewish Wars.

aa5874

The Pauline writings destroy any claims of a resurrection if Jesus was just a man. Once the Roman actually crucified Jesus then it would have been Suicidal for the Jesus cult to have spread word "all over" the Empire that Jesus was resurrected.

It would be expected that the supposed disciples of Jesus would go into Hiding and maintain a very very low secretive profile.

In the very Gospels Jesus did NOT want his identity to be known.

As soon as Jesus Publicly Identified himself as the Son of God and Messianic ruler he was DEAD in less than 16 hours. His disciples had ALREADY abandoned him or Denied knowing him.

It would be Expected that People who claimed Jesus was the Messiah and was STILL ALIVE would have been EXECUTED or would be hunted down.

TedM

What I'm getting at is what do YOU think would have made such a preacher influential enough to have people believe he had been resurrected, and for that belief to persist over time? What ingredients likely would make such a reaction understandable?


But, it still has to make sense to each person, even if it is not sensible. There had to be a reason for those who believed to believe. It wasn't enough for him to have just taught about feeding the poor, and then getting killed. People had to have thought he was onto something and was important enough to believe he had ushered in the new kingdom..etc..

Someone, sure. But what would make it 'stick'?