Freethought & Rationalism Archive

aa5874 · 08-23-2007, 10:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gooch's dad

Huh?

What does an "immovable earth" have to do with a flat earth? The medieval church believed in an earth-centered solar system. That has absolutely nothing to do with "flat earth".

Sheesh. The crap one reads on this forum sometimes boggles the mind.

That's the crap pushed by the Medieval Church. In an earth-centered system, the earth does not move, it is flat and fixed to foundations. It does not rotate.

You should read about the trial of Galileo in the 17th century, to see the crap pushed by the Church. See http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/proj...o/galileo.html

andrewcriddle · 08-23-2007, 10:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RareBird

Though it may not have been a matter of "scientific expression" of factual reality, the presumption of a flat Earth is primary to the medeivil religious world view. The presumption that heaven is in the "up" direction reflects the parochical view that everyone everywhere lives on the same plane. The assumptions of Jesus and Mary only make sense under this "fixed" "flat plane" constant. If the actual truth were observed the questions would arise as to where the bodies of Jesus and Mary would go since the orientation of the Earth to the cosmos changes each moment it rotates. Do the bodies just stop at the end of the atmosphere and disappear? Or do they do a victory lap around the globe to show everyone they've assumed? Or are the narcissistic Jews and early Christians the only ones who matter in the world? Or what? No one has to emphatically insist on the world being flat, they just have to fail to challenge presumptions made that come from a fixed flat plain world view--one which see the self as the center of the universe and everything else a provision of god.

IIUC you are confusing the idea of a stationary spherical earth at the centre of the universe, (which is indeed important in the medieval world view), with the idea of a flat earth (which is not) .

Andrew Criddle

RareBird · 08-23-2007, 11:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

Quote:

Originally Posted by RareBird

Though it may not have been a matter of "scientific expression" of factual reality, the presumption of a flat Earth is primary to the medeivil religious world view. The presumption that heaven is in the "up" direction reflects the parochical view that everyone everywhere lives on the same plane. The assumptions of Jesus and Mary only make sense under this "fixed" "flat plane" constant. If the actual truth were observed the questions would arise as to where the bodies of Jesus and Mary would go since the orientation of the Earth to the cosmos changes each moment it rotates. Do the bodies just stop at the end of the atmosphere and disappear? Or do they do a victory lap around the globe to show everyone they've assumed? Or are the narcissistic Jews and early Christians the only ones who matter in the world? Or what? No one has to emphatically insist on the world being flat, they just have to fail to challenge presumptions made that come from a fixed flat plain world view--one which see the self as the center of the universe and everything else a provision of god.

IIUC you are confusing the idea of a stationary spherical earth at the centre of the universe, (which is indeed important in the medieval world view), with the idea of a flat earth (which is not) .

Andrew Criddle

IIUC you are not reading or thinking about what I said. You are failing to see that my main point is not about which type of world is at the center of the thinking, it is really that the greater universe is taken without express verbalization to revolve around mankind--or the narrow portion of it that believes itself "special" from the other parts of mankind. Everything else is just presumption to serve the judeo-christian human-centric notion that man is the purpose the universe exists. There was no reason in the medievil world not to believe just that. Arguing what some smarter scientists of the time might have thought does not change the realties of the vast rank and file. That very thinking continues to this day. Every time people raise their heads and or arms in the upward direction they are affirming the stantionary-ness of theplain on which they leave and the universality of it to all people. The last thing on their mind is quibble the details of actual truth.

Berthold · 08-23-2007, 11:16 AM

Summary to be found here.

aa5874 · 08-23-2007, 12:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

Quote:

Originally Posted by RareBird

Though it may not have been a matter of "scientific expression" of factual reality, the presumption of a flat Earth is primary to the medeivil religious world view. The presumption that heaven is in the "up" direction reflects the parochical view that everyone everywhere lives on the same plane. The assumptions of Jesus and Mary only make sense under this "fixed" "flat plane" constant. If the actual truth were observed the questions would arise as to where the bodies of Jesus and Mary would go since the orientation of the Earth to the cosmos changes each moment it rotates. Do the bodies just stop at the end of the atmosphere and disappear? Or do they do a victory lap around the globe to show everyone they've assumed? Or are the narcissistic Jews and early Christians the only ones who matter in the world? Or what? No one has to emphatically insist on the world being flat, they just have to fail to challenge presumptions made that come from a fixed flat plain world view--one which see the self as the center of the universe and everything else a provision of god.

IIUC you are confusing the idea of a stationary spherical earth at the centre of the universe, (which is indeed important in the medieval world view), with the idea of a flat earth (which is not) .

Andrew Criddle

Can you refer to any source for information regarding the Medieval Church and a stationary spherical earth?

I can refer you to Cosmas who was reported to have been a christian in the 6th century, who was not only convinced the earth was flat but quadrangular.

The Christian Topography, by Cosmas Indicopleustes, book4......."ye suppose that there are men walking the earth over with their feet opposite the feet of other men.."

See, http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/awiesner/cosmas.html

Remember, we are dealng specifically with the Church from c500-1500.

Berthold · 08-23-2007, 12:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Can you refer to any source for information regarding the Medieval Church and a stationary spherical earth?
....
Remember, we are dealng specifically with the Church from c500-1500.

Just scroll down in the link I gave to the appropriate paragraphs.

Cosmas was the exception rather than the rule.

lee_merrill · 08-23-2007, 12:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

IIUC you are confusing the idea of a stationary spherical earth at the centre of the universe, (which is indeed important in the medieval world view), with the idea of a flat earth (which is not) .

Was it really thought to be round? I had no idea, I would like to read some quotes and such, if they could be posted here...

Jehanne · 08-23-2007, 12:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Berthold

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Can you refer to any source for information regarding the Medieval Church and a stationary spherical earth?
....
Remember, we are dealng specifically with the Church from c500-1500.

Just scroll down in the link I gave to the appropriate paragraphs.

Cosmas was the exception rather than the rule.

Keep in mind, however, that according to the Wikipedia article, "St. John Chrysostom (344â€“408) explicitly espoused the idea, based on his reading of Scripture, that the Earth floated on the waters gathered below the firmament..." Now, St. John Chrysostom, in addition to being a canonized Catholic Saint, was also one of the 33 "Doctors of the Church":

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctor_of_the_Church

This means that the Catholic Churh regarded Saint Chrysostom's teachings as being of "eminent learning" and "great sanctity"! Clearly, the early to later medieval Catholic Church saw no problem with the idea of the Earth being flat!

aa5874 · 08-23-2007, 12:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Berthold

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Can you refer to any source for information regarding the Medieval Church and a stationary spherical earth?
....
Remember, we are dealng specifically with the Church from c500-1500.

Just scroll down in the link I gave to the appropriate paragraphs.

Cosmas was the exception rather than the rule.

Well, this is Saint Augustine from the very link," But as to the fable that there are Antipodes, that is, men on the opposite side of the earth, where the sun rises when it sets to us, men who walk with their feet opposite to ours, that is on no ground credible

From the link, Severian, bishop of Gabala,' The earth is flat and the sun does not pass under it in the night, but travels through the northern parts as if hidden by a wall.'

Lactantius, St. John Chrysostom, St. Athanasius and Diodorus of Tarsus , according to the link, also propagated the flat earth theory. Perhaps some believed it was flat like a coin or disc, but not the shape of a ball.

The Church appeared to accept that men could walk with their feet opposite each other very late.

Toto · 08-23-2007, 01:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gooch's dad

Huh?

What does an "immovable earth" have to do with a flat earth? The medieval church believed in an earth-centered solar system. That has absolutely nothing to do with "flat earth".

Sheesh. The crap one reads on this forum sometimes boggles the mind.

But it all gets challenged and debunked, does it not?

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08-23-2007, 11:16 AM	#24
Berthold Veteran Member Join Date: May 2004 Location: Vienna, AUSTRIA Posts: 6,147	Summary to be found here.

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