Freethought & Rationalism Archive

French Prometheus · 08-23-2004, 12:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by whichphilosophy

None of the Nazis were Jehovah's witnesses or Penetcostal I guess.

I guess none was a JW (or very much in the closet and a tad schizophrenic). Concerning the Pentecostals, I have no idea.

French Prometheus · 08-23-2004, 01:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by whichphilosophy

I think Hitler did believe his Christianity was correct; however as with any despot they would ensure support from the main Christian opinion groups.

I think if the same lunatics who took over the assylum were around, pretty much similar pattern of destruction and genocide would have taken place but with differnt ..isms. This is because we are referring to highly irrational individuals.

Yes Anti Semitism was pretty much part of the agenda of the Churches at that time and always at least simmered below the surface.

They will need the fanatics of course as the driving forces. Also the said fanatics can just say anything and this will “fly�? with the masses. Yes profoundly Mass stupidity and sincere ignorance are the key ingredients. Most religions will believe they can offer the road to truth.

I mostly agree with you.

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I would tend to believe more so in Europe. We’ve already had examples. The US constriction does nowadays allow greater freedoms of religion and speech, though not perfect. A few years ago I would have pretty much agreed. And it has happened in Europe (former Yugoslavian republics). However I think the US has strengthened its commitment to the constitution on the freedom of beliefs and religion.

Here, I disagree. The American Constitution protects people in so far as it is interpreted this way. If you can distort what the Constitution says into meaning that it's OK to have "In God we trust" on the money, you can certainly distort it further. The Bush Administration has been stripping away freedoms since 9/11 and violating the civil rights of many people (the most famous example is Gitmo). I know Americans hold their Constitution as the ultimate shield against tyranny at home but history shows that a piece of paper is no real guarantee. The only guarantee is what the people is unwilling to accept. And that's prone to change, especially in a climate of continuous war.

When I used the term "Europe" I was referring to the European Union, not the geographical area (just as "America" was referrring to the USA).The key word here is experience. We Europeans had first-hand experience of democracy being destroyed and replaced by a horrendous regime. It's still very present in the national psyche of many countries.

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There is the political factor for the “you’re with us or against us�? herd command, but for all its faults, the US does have a lot of good points.

No sensible person contests that the US has both good and bad points. But the degradation has been so fast since the Shrub took power that the trend is somewhat worrying.

French Prometheus · 08-23-2004, 01:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magus55

And where, by these quotes, do you automatically assume Hitler was Christian? All Hitler and Nazi's say is "God". There are thousands of beliefs in the world. I don't see anything of the above lending to the belief that they accepted Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior. And if they did, they must have never read the Bible ( well of course if they were Catholic it wasn't allowed, so thats not surprising).

What else do you need? We've already given you exceprts from Mein Kampf, personal letters and public speeches in which he states that he is a Christian.

Quote:

“My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God’s truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow my self to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice… And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows . For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people.�? –Adolf Hitler, in a speech on 12 April 1922

whichphilosophy · 08-23-2004, 06:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Prometheus_fr

I mostly agree with you.

Here, I disagree. The American Constitution protects people in so far as it is interpreted this way. If you can distort what the Constitution says into meaning that it's OK to have "In God we trust" on the money, you can certainly distort it further. The Bush Administration has been stripping away freedoms since 9/11 and violating the civil rights of many people (the most famous example is Gitmo). I know Americans hold their Constitution as the ultimate shield against tyranny at home but history shows that a piece of paper is no real guarantee. The only guarantee is what the people is unwilling to accept. And that's prone to change, especially in a climate of continuous war..

The other factor is of course apathy and unwillingness to challenge threats to the constutional freedoms. Where democracy is in place people take this for granted, rather like having surpluses of wheat or grain. Of course I would agree that there is a danger of us using undemocratic methods in the name of security. The secret services I am sure do a lot of good, but just a shade of assumption here and there, false information that is based on unreliable sources ends up with thousands imprisoned.

The Freedom of Information Act passed in the 70s does give access to government records in most categories except military security, and if challenged proven to be so, but it still takes a lot of effort and red tape to make these public.

This means that in the decline of democracies it is a little more uncertain as to which countries or country may fall first.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Prometheus_frWhen I used the term "Europe" I was referring to the European Union, not the geographical area (just as "America" was referrring to the USA).The key word here is experience. We Europeans had first-hand experience of democracy being destroyed and replaced by a horrendous regime. It's still very present in the national psyche of many countries..[/QUOTE

The EU courts can pass rulings though they are not necessarily binding. Nonethless, this is enough to alert other countries.

No sensible person contests that the US has both good and bad points. But the degradation has been so fast since the Shrub took power that the trend is somewhat worrying.

I guess he and Sharon are not contenders for the Nobel Peace prize. The points you mentioned are valid in that nothing is certain, and hopefully enough of us are aware to prevent such things from happening. Though it's been years since I lobbied for the Freedom of Information Act in the UK for instance.

One worrying thing for instance if Muslim communities in the US get heavily targetted on the basis that being a Muslim makes them a suspect. This would be exactly what the terrorist groups want to try and create a Muslim Crusade, which they have not been very successful at the moment.

Regards,

whichphilosophy · 08-23-2004, 06:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Prometheus_fr

I guess none was a JW (or very much in the closet and a tad schizophrenic). Concerning the Pentecostals, I have no idea.

I was just joking of course. The minorities were at the Brunt end of the Ethnic cleansic programs along with the Gypsies. :wave:

Answerer · 08-23-2004, 08:18 AM

Hilter was a christian just as Osama is a muslim. Of course, many muslims (not all) do enjoying calling Osama unIslamic or fanatic but that doesn't make him a non-muslim as in the similiar case of Hilter.

So, if Hilter was an anti-christ as what some will like to believe. I would expect him to burn down churches and massacre most, if not all, of the catholics and protestant priests in Europe which he surprisingly had never done. Besides, if he was really an anti-christ, he would most probably had supported the Jews' beliefs and views (last but no least that of cruxifying Jesus) rather than using them as raw experimental products.

whichphilosophy · 08-24-2004, 03:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Answerer

Hilter was a christian just as Osama is a muslim. Of course, many muslims (not all) do enjoying calling Osama unIslamic or fanatic but that doesn't make him a non-muslim as in the similiar case of Hilter.

So, if Hilter was an anti-christ as what some will like to believe. I would expect him to burn down churches and massacre most, if not all, of the catholics and protestant priests in Europe which he surprisingly had never done. Besides, if he was really an anti-christ, he would most probably had supported the Jews' beliefs and views (last but no least that of cruxifying Jesus) rather than using them as raw experimental products.

The point you made (first sentence) is what I tend to try to put a across. However the Jews are not anti Christ, they just don't believe him to be the Messiah. The muslims believe he was a prophet. There were like individuals who were entrenched in positions of power in the German Lutherian and Catholic Churches so these became the Christian Churches of the Fatherland.

Psalm 13:5 · 08-24-2004, 03:17 AM

I think Hitler was satanic. And I think there have been other dictators throughout history who would also fall under that category. As the bible says, satan is the 'god of this age'.

French Prometheus · 08-24-2004, 04:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Psalm 13:5

I think Hitler was satanic. And I think there have been other dictators throughout history who would also fall under that category. As the bible says, satan is the 'god of this age'.

Your unsupported makes-you-feel-good opinion is noted. Hitler believed in God and called Jesus his lord and savior. He was a Christian even if his interpretation of Christianity is very different from yours. Christians of all stripes have to quit using the no true Scotsman fallacy. Again, the fact that Hitler considered himself a Christian does not imply anything about the veracity or worth of Christianity.

Even if the Christian God exists, the way you interpret the Bible is not necessarily the way it SHOULD be interpreted. The mere fact that YOU are convinced to be right is no evidence. You're not a prophetess sent by God to speak on his behalf. There are many Christians who are absolutely convinced to know the real meaning of the Bible. The problem is that they can't agree on what it is.

Talking about the Bible, let's not forget 1 Thessalonians (the oldest of Paul's epistle) :

Quote:

2:14
For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have of the Jews:
2:15
Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men:
2:16
Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.

Jack the Bodiless · 08-25-2004, 08:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Psalm 13:5

I think Hitler was satanic. And I think there have been other dictators throughout history who would also fall under that category. As the bible says, satan is the 'god of this age'.

I'm curious: would Moses be "satanic" too, as he ordered acts of genocide (according to the Bible)?

If genocide isn't the trait that makes him "satanic": then what is?

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08-23-2004, 08:18 AM	#46
Answerer Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Singapore Posts: 3,956	Hilter was a christian just as Osama is a muslim. Of course, many muslims (not all) do enjoying calling Osama unIslamic or fanatic but that doesn't make him a non-muslim as in the similiar case of Hilter. So, if Hilter was an anti-christ as what some will like to believe. I would expect him to burn down churches and massacre most, if not all, of the catholics and protestant priests in Europe which he surprisingly had never done. Besides, if he was really an anti-christ, he would most probably had supported the Jews' beliefs and views (last but no least that of cruxifying Jesus) rather than using them as raw experimental products.

08-24-2004, 03:17 AM	#48
Psalm 13:5 Regular Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: California Posts: 334	I think Hitler was satanic. And I think there have been other dictators throughout history who would also fall under that category. As the bible says, satan is the 'god of this age'.

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