Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Sheshonq · 02-01-2008, 12:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diogenes the Cynic

Daniel is also wrong about both the name and nationality of the person who conquered Babylon (and liberated the Jews from captivity....something which a contemporary Jew should not have gotten confused about). Babylon was not conquered by "Darius the Mede," but by Cyrus, who was Persian. There was no such person as Darius the Mede and (contrary to Daniel, who was evidently trying to backfill failed prophecies of Isaiah and Jeremiah) Babylon was never conquered by the Medes.

Cyrus had a grandson named Darius who eventually became king, but he, like his grandfather, was a Persian, not a Mede. Daniel also says that "Darius the Mede" was the son of Xerxes, but Xerxes was actually the son of Darius, not his father.

There is no reference whatsoever in Daniel 11 that "Darius the Mede" will conquer Babylon.

Ah, I see that someone else has already demonstrated that you don't know what you're talking about.

Quote:

"In the first year of Darius the Mede, I took my stand to strengthen and fortify him. And now I will tell you the truth: Persia will have three more kings, and the fourth will be wealthier than them all; by the power he obtains from his wealth, he will stir everyone up against the kingdom of Greece. Then a warrior king will appear who will have an extensive dominion and do as he pleases. But after his appearance, his kingdom will be broken up and scattered to the four winds of heaven, but not for any of his posterity, nor with dominion like that which he had; for his kingdom will be uprooted and belong to others beside these."
(TANAKH, The Holy Scriptures. Philadelphia & New York. The Jewish Publication Society. 1988. 5748 [year of the Creation])

Please note the reference to Alexander the Great in bold type.

Funny; it doesn't *say* "Alexander the Great" anywhere. OH! That's just your wishful thinking! :rolling:

spin · 02-01-2008, 12:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

There is no reference whatsoever in Daniel 11 that "Darius the Mede" will conquer Babylon.

There doesn't need to be. Dan 5:30f says

That very night Belshazzar, the Chaldean king, was killed. And Darius the Mede received the kingdom, being about sixty-two years old.

We know these facts:

Belshazzar was never king,
Nabonidus was back in Babylonia,
Belshazzar was out of the city, having been sent to lead the army and died some days before the fall of Babylon at Opis,
Ugbaru (Gubaru or Gobryas) the Persian satrap of Gutium received the city, it having been given up to the Persians by notable Babylonians,
There was no "Darius the Mede", despite the Daniel picture of him allocating satrapies, as only the king of kings could do.

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

Please note the reference to Alexander the Great in bold type.

What is the point of this reference to Alexander here?

spin

arnoldo · 02-01-2008, 12:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by makerowner

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

There is no reference whatsoever in Daniel 11 that "Darius the Mede" will conquer Babylon.

Not in ch. 11, but:
"That very night Belshaz'zar the Chalde'an king was slain. And Darius the Mede received the kingdom, being about sixty-two years old." (Dan. 5:30-1 RSV)

Quote:

Please note the reference to Alexander the Great in bold type.

What's your point?

Do you agree with spin's explanation of ch. 11? Yes or no answer please. If not, please explain why and provide sources to back up your explanation.

No. Note the following text from the "Babylon Chronicles"

Quote:

"In the month of Tashritu, at the time when
Cyrus battled the forces of Akkad in Opis on the
Tigris river, the citizens of Akkad revolted against
him, but Nabonidus scattered his opposition with a
great slaughter.
On the 14th day, Sippar was taken without a
fight. Nabonidus then fled for his life.
On the 16th day, Gubaru (Darius the Mede)
the leader of Gutium along with the army of Cyrus
entered Babylon without any opposition. Later they
arrested Nabonidus when he returned to Babylon.”
On the third day of the month of Arahshamnu,
Cyrus marched into Babylon, and they laid down
green branches in front of him. The city was no
longer at war, Peace being restored. Cyrus then sent
his best wishes to the residents living there. His
governor, Gubaru, then installed leaders to govern
over all Babylon.”

Cyprus appointed Gubaru (Darius of Mede) to be the administer of Babylon after it's fall.

spin · 02-01-2008, 12:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

Quote:

Originally Posted by makerowner

Not in ch. 11, but:
"That very night Belshaz'zar the Chalde'an king was slain. And Darius the Mede received the kingdom, being about sixty-two years old." (Dan. 5:30-1 RSV)

What's your point?

Do you agree with spin's explanation of ch. 11? Yes or no answer please. If not, please explain why and provide sources to back up your explanation.

No. Note the following text from the "Babylon Chronicles"

Quote:

"In the month of Tashritu, at the time when
Cyrus battled the forces of Akkad in Opis on the
Tigris river, the citizens of Akkad revolted against
him, but Nabonidus scattered his opposition with a
great slaughter.
On the 14th day, Sippar was taken without a
fight. Nabonidus then fled for his life.
On the 16th day, Gubaru (Darius the Mede)
the leader of Gutium along with the army of Cyrus
entered Babylon without any opposition. Later they
arrested Nabonidus when he returned to Babylon.”
On the third day of the month of Arahshamnu,
Cyrus marched into Babylon, and they laid down
green branches in front of him. The city was no
longer at war, Peace being restored. Cyrus then sent
his best wishes to the residents living there. His
governor, Gubaru, then installed leaders to govern
over all Babylon.”

Cyprus appointed Gubaru (Darius of Mede) to be the administer of Babylon after it's fall.

Firstly it's Cyrus. Cyprus is an island. Secondly "(Darius of Mede)" is an editorial clarification, so that the christian reader will make the association: it's not in the text. Here's a reliable translation: look at the 17th year. Read it: it's interesting an full of information.

This post of yours deserves a Doh!

spin

arnoldo · 02-01-2008, 12:58 PM

Cyrus appoints Darius as an adminsitrator of Babylon.

http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-1715/Darius-I

spin · 02-01-2008, 01:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

Cyrus appoints Darius as an adminsitrator of Babylon.

http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-1715/Darius-I

Reading: F

Darius "completed the organization of the empire into satrapies, initiated by Cyrus the Great, and fixed the annual tribute due from each province." You've simply misunderstood the text. He wasn't appointed as an administrator of Babylon. We are dealing with the reign of Darius I, who built on an approach established by Cyrus.

spin

Solitary Man · 02-01-2008, 01:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

Cyrus appoints Darius as an adminsitrator of Babylon.

http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-1715/Darius-I

Reading: F

Darius "completed the organization of the empire into satrapies, initiated by Cyrus the Great, and fixed the annual tribute due from each province." You've simply misunderstood the text. He wasn't appointed as an administrator of Babylon. We are dealing with the reign of Darius I, who built on an approach established by Cyrus.

It is certain for me that the cause of failed reading of his is on account of his language being secondary to him.

arnoldo · 02-01-2008, 01:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

No. Note the following text from the "Babylon Chronicles"

Cyprus appointed Gubaru (Darius of Mede) to be the administer of Babylon after it's fall.

Firstly it's Cyrus. Cyprus is an island. Secondly "(Darius of Mede)" is an editorial clarification, so that the christian reader will make the association: it's not in the text. Here's a reliable translation: look at the 17th year. Read it: it's interesting an full of information.

This post of yours deserves a Doh!

spin

From your source:

Quote:

Cyrus sent greetings to all Babylon. Gobryas, his governor, installed subgovernors in Babylon.

spin · 02-01-2008, 01:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

Firstly it's Cyrus. Cyprus is an island. Secondly "(Darius of Mede)" is an editorial clarification, so that the christian reader will make the association: it's not in the text. Here's a reliable translation: look at the 17th year. Read it: it's interesting an full of information.

This post of yours deserves a Doh!

From your source:

Quote:

Cyrus sent greetings to all Babylon. Gobryas, his governor, installed subgovernors in Babylon.

Umm, what's that got to do with "Darius the Mede"?

(And do you think that subgovernors is equivalent to appointing satrapies??)

spin

Sheshonq · 02-01-2008, 02:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

Quote:

Originally Posted by makerowner

Not in ch. 11, but:
"That very night Belshaz'zar the Chalde'an king was slain. And Darius the Mede received the kingdom, being about sixty-two years old." (Dan. 5:30-1 RSV)

What's your point?

Do you agree with spin's explanation of ch. 11? Yes or no answer please. If not, please explain why and provide sources to back up your explanation.

No. Note the following text from the "Babylon Chronicles"

Quote:

"In the month of Tashritu, at the time when
Cyrus battled the forces of Akkad in Opis on the
Tigris river, the citizens of Akkad revolted against
him, but Nabonidus scattered his opposition with a
great slaughter.
On the 14th day, Sippar was taken without a
fight. Nabonidus then fled for his life.
On the 16th day, Gubaru (Darius the Mede)
the leader of Gutium along with the army of Cyrus
entered Babylon without any opposition. Later they
arrested Nabonidus when he returned to Babylon.”
On the third day of the month of Arahshamnu,
Cyrus marched into Babylon, and they laid down
green branches in front of him. The city was no
longer at war, Peace being restored. Cyrus then sent
his best wishes to the residents living there. His
governor, Gubaru, then installed leaders to govern
over all Babylon.”

Cyprus appointed Gubaru (Darius of Mede) to be the administer of Babylon after it's fall.

Gubaru - yes.

"Darius of Mede" - no. There is no evidence that Gubaru and "Darius of Mede" are the same person. In fact, the only people who make such a claim are fundamentalists trying to desperately rescue their inerrancy from the trash heap.

Oh, I see that spin has already shish-kabobbed you for this mistake.

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02-01-2008, 12:58 PM	#295
arnoldo Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Latin America Posts: 4,066	Cyrus appoints Darius as an adminsitrator of Babylon. http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-1715/Darius-I

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