Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Didymus · 02-04-2009, 02:28 PM

The shrine to Minerva under St. Maria SM is not an example of either sort of transformation, so it's really irrelevant to the proposition. There's no question that Christian churches were built over pagan temples, but that is not the equivalent of appropriating pagan gods for Christian purposes.

Note that the "sopra Minerva" designation has been retained, so it's apparent that the Church is unashamed of the fact that the Christian church is built over a pagan temple.

Ddms

Roger Pearse · 02-05-2009, 12:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

Quote:

Need some help from the resident scholars. Can someone recommend a good source on parallels between Christian Saints and pre-existing gods? If there is any good sources, that is.

Quote:

Tell Augustine that he should be no means destroy the temples of the

gods but rather the idols within those temples. Let him, after he has

purified them with holy water, place altars and relics of the saints

in them. For, if those temples are well built, they should be converted

from the worship of demons to the service of the true God. Thus, seeing

that their places of worship are not destroyed, the people will banish

error from their hearts and come to places familiar and dear to them

in acknowledgement and worship of the true God.

And you quoted possible parallels in art - equivalent I assume to Buddhas having Greek artistic parallels.

All I have done is suggest a parallel explicitly stated by Gregory...

I am unable to see how this text backs up your argument. It contradicts it, surely? And... Gregory states no "parallel"....?

All the best,

Roger Pearse

Roger Pearse · 02-05-2009, 12:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Didymus

The shrine to Minerva under St. Maria SM is not an example of either sort of transformation, so it's really irrelevant to the proposition. There's no question that Christian churches were built over pagan temples, but that is not the equivalent of appropriating pagan gods for Christian purposes.

It is remarkable that anyone could fail to understand that.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

Clivedurdle · 02-05-2009, 10:47 AM

The issue is the starting assumptions - is xianity - as its propaganda asserts - new, conquering evil, beginning again - the motif of the resurrection, or is it an ordinary "oriental cult" evolving as everything else always has done in the interactions of ideas, power, actions but gaining real power?

Quote:

Behold I Make All Things New"
REVELATION 21 & 22:1-5

"And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea." Revelation 21:1 The "devouring" fire that burned up the wicked, leaving them neither root nor branch. This fire burned until, ". . .the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up." 2 Peter 3:10.

Toto · 02-05-2009, 12:47 PM

Just a note from another thread - Pagan 4th century mosaic found under N. Italian cathedral

Quote:

"The church was built on top of preexisting building structures. This is rather normal in Reggio Emilia. We can see that little care was taken of the mosaic floor, since pillars are built on top of it," Curina said.

gentleexit · 02-05-2009, 04:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

THE TOMB OF ST. PETER by Margherita Guarducci is available online.

The book, St Peters in the Vatican (or via: amazon.co.uk) reviews over what and when the first St Peters was built. It shows up how tenuous Guarducci's conclusions are (here's a quick blow by blow ...).

Irrespective of when it was built or by whom, its rise meant the demise of the Great Mother's Phrygianum. This is another example of replacement, not adoption. I think that's the more general pattern in the early days - good sites taken over.

Later, the martyr saints came marching in and yes, they took over from local gods. People wanted local heroes. But this doesn't mean they "turned their gods into saints". They replaced them with saints.

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02-04-2009, 02:28 PM	#31
Didymus Regular Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: California Posts: 416	The shrine to Minerva under St. Maria SM is not an example of either sort of transformation, so it's really irrelevant to the proposition. There's no question that Christian churches were built over pagan temples, but that is not the equivalent of appropriating pagan gods for Christian purposes. Note that the "sopra Minerva" designation has been retained, so it's apparent that the Church is unashamed of the fact that the Christian church is built over a pagan temple. Ddms

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