Freethought & Rationalism Archive

spin · 11-10-2008, 02:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by avi

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

...towards that ancient and original Nazarene faith.

"ancient", but not predating Christianity, correct? i.e. Nazarene, meaning branch, from Nazareth, right?

The relevance of "branch" speculation to the discussion derives from a linguistically-challenged argument based on appearance that tries to link the Hebrew root NCR (nun-tsade-resh) to the Greek Nazarhnos and related terms. However, as discussed in the archives, tsade is almost invariably rendered as a sigma in Greek, rarely a zeta. Yet Nazarhnos and related terms invariably feature a zeta (in Greek).

That the Syriac features a tsade in its translation of the Greek terms shows a knowledge of the existence of the town name in Hebrew (the Greek form is not derivable -- for the reason already stated here, tsade transliteration -- from the Syriac).

The Greek is derived from an already Greek rendered form of NZYR, ie Nazarite, given the speculations on the purity of the Nazarite through his vow. Eusebius and Tertullian both use reference to the Nazarite notion as a major source for etymology for Nazarhnos and related terms, as the writer of Matthew does when he pulls out the prophecy "he shall be called a nazwraios" from an announcement to the mother of Samson in Jdg 13:5.

spin

Sheshbazzar · 11-10-2008, 07:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by avi

Thank you Sheshbazzar, for your well written response, I understand the situation, a bit more clearly.
With regard to the original post of this thread, could the Nazarenes have prepared frescoes with these images, or, in your opinion, are the wall decorations evidence that this household could not have been Nazarene? In other words, could a Jewish sect, living adjacent to a synagogue in a small town situated on the west bank of the Euphrates river, eighteen hundred years ago, have constructed such images, and/or written such graffiti, or, in your opinion, are frescoes depicting these themes, artistic endeavors, creation of which would violate Jewish/Nazarene customs and tradition?

I has been a long thread, perhaps you did not read, or have forgotten the contents of post #113? in answer to this query.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

Hey Shesh,

Better yet, these detractors need to explain why, if christianity was a real hush-hush wink-wink secret society that kept underground all those long centuries without any identifiable evidence by which archaeological observers might know that they actually existed, then why would we even expect the Dura outpost to have all these grotesquely blatant and manifestly outwardly christian symbolism plastered all around their living room for anyone to openly interpret and report to the pre-Nicene state Roman christian persecutors? Perhaps we are not dealing with a case of phanero christians, but the OP cannot have it both ways. If the OP is arguing the early christians were non-descript and unassuming, why did they paint the equivalent a big pink (christian) cross in their living room?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

My opinion is that the reason they were able to "get away with it" was because they were NOT "christians", but JEWS, and the Dura site was a JEWISH Messianic synagogue, Adamantly and publicly NON-christian, and thus exempt from those prohibitions against the practice of Christianity.
This also explains the old JEWISH Messianic tropes being displayed sans any explicit christian iconography.
Being JEWISH, and a recognized SECT of The JEWISH religion, gave them an advantage, and a freedom of worship that was denied to the paganistically derived "chrestian" ne "christian" cults.

"Crestian" or "christian", I accept that these Gentile, JEWISH wannabes were those -"dogs"- hovering around, and picking up scraps from under Messianic Judaism's tables.
No wonder they bred into that mongrel religion, hunting in packs, baying and acting like dogs at each others throats.

coupled with POST #180

Quote:

But it is doubtful that 3rd century Roman officials would have considered the living rooms of residences in Dura Europos private, particularly if any rumor came to their ears of such house serving as a place of christian meeting and worship. (and it likely would have, given the garish decor)
With a Imperial ruling in place barring the practice of christianity, the doors would have been smashed in and trodden under the sandals of Roman soldiers, "Christian" icons and murals would have been destroyed, and likely the entire residence burned or leveled to the ground, the owner and any one else identified as participating in the crime against the Imperium, punished and/or executed in compliance with Roman Law.
Again, to me, the very survival of the Dura Europos site points to it having been known to the Roman authorities, and having been accepted by those authorities as being non-christian.
A contemporary Jewish synagogue found in the same vicinity evidences the presence of an active Jewish diaspora congregation.
It is my theory, that the so-called (mis-identified) "house-church" was, and was considered by Roman government officials to be a Jewish Synagogue, a "Beit Knesset" of The Jewish Sect of The Nazarenes, and thus not found to be in any violation of Roman Law.
I posit that the colorful murals were intended to attract Dispora Jews to a new and vibrant form of Judaism, one whose Saints and Heroes were "up to date" and reflective of contemporary Jewish concerns, rather than just the thousand year old ones that were repetitiously and monotonously eulogised in that "old-time" synagogue just down the street.
Gentiles, Strangers would also be welcomed, and accepted as full and equal members, IF they converted, and were circumcised, as Peter, James and the other Jerusalem Apostles taught and did.

The half-baked, still semi-pagan Gentile "CHRESTians" / "Christians" were still hiding out and engaged in their continual "doctoring" up (under the pseudonym of "Paul") of their composite Pagan/Jewish no-law theology.

Of course being a JEWISH Nazarene home synagogue, a "Beit Knesset", there would be no "big pink cross" in that living room, as these Jews would want nothing to do with such "christian" items and idols, which a display of would most certainly endanger their protected "Jewish" status with the Roman authorities.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

...towards that ancient and original Nazarene faith.

Quote:

Originally Posted by avi

"ancient", but not predating Christianity, correct? i.e. Nazarene, meaning branch, from Nazareth, right?, i.e. dating from birth of Jesus, whereas,

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

...I do not place the beginnings of the Gentile "christian" religion within the 1st century, but rather far earlier, with the translating of of The LXX, ...

Quote:

Originally Posted by avi

Or, have I once again, misunderstood?

The Jewish hope and expectation for the arrival of their promised Messiah is amply expresed throughout The TaNaKa, and was an integral part of Jewish religious belief, well before The Scriptures (ha'TaNaKa) were ever translated into the Greek of The LXX.
Thus there were Jewish believers in The Messiah for centuries before the claimed birth of the Nazarene. The possibility that some among these applied or accepted some form of the word NTZR as pertaining to themselves is presently an unknown.
We do know by Hebrew texts that they did often use words in ways that by our presently linguistic standards are quite incomprehensible, and unexplainable, Translators often can only resort to giving some difficult constructions their best shot interpretations based on context, as the actual words as they are spelled or arranged violate any normal rules.
The LXX Greek fumbles and stumbles in many places, and has no way of accurately conveying the depth and the breadth inherent in the original idioms.

So, with the 3rd century B.C. availability and accessibility of The LXX to a large gentile audience, these began to examine the words of The Jewish Prophets, and to reason and consider just -where- and -how- they of the Nations fit into the Big Picture, consequently developing their own ideas, theories, theology, and "christology", one that developed parallel with, but separate from, the religion of Judaism.

"Paul" ends up getting credited as being the individual (sic) that receives a "vision" from heaven with all these "new" ideas for a "Gentile" gospel, and dispensation. "New" ideas that had actually been hammered out and constructed by others over the preceding 3 centuries.

No WHAM! BAMM! and SHAZAM! and suddenly "Paul" gets a "vision" and a revealed "Gospel to The Gentiles" cute story, but,
It simply never happened that way, rather, it was all worked out, and plotted out well in advance.

What was going on amongst The Messianic Jews at that time was something considerably different, while they were the originators of most of the familiar sayings, tropes and stories found in the Gospels, these were the product of an entirely different agenda, than those ends that they were being adapted and bent to by those outsider gentiles latter called "christians".
James and the other pillars of the Jerusalem Jewish Nazarene Apostles looked on with disdain, and held themselves apart, from the antics and frenzy of these gentile dogs.

spin · 11-18-2008, 10:30 AM

According to Clark Hopkins, the archaeologist who wrote "The Discovery of Dura-Europos", mentioned earlier, it was the expedition's intention to take back the synagogue paintings to Yale and leave those from the house-church and the mythraeum to the then Syrian government. However, at the last moment, the Syrians decided they wanted the synagogue paintings, so the Americans were left with the house-church frescoes. From the photos in this book, the synagogue frescoes were really impressive.

(I just wonder where they are now. Perhaps on display in Damascus or maybe Deir ez-Zor, but I doubt it.)

spin

Toto · 11-18-2008, 10:36 AM

I've seen a few of the Synagogue frescoes in the Skirball Museum in Los Angeles. I suspect the Syrians recognized their value.

spin · 11-18-2008, 11:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

I've seen a few of the Synagogue frescoes in the Skirball Museum in Los Angeles. I suspect the Syrians recognized their value.

I've just come to a mention of these frescoes in the Damascus museum where they were photographed by Erwin R. Goodenough (obviously more than a half century ago). These frescoes have traveled.

spin

mountainman · 11-18-2008, 04:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

I suspect the Syrians recognized their value.

Dear Toto,

It appears the Syrians did not suspect the unestimable value of the only prenicene christian "house-church".

Best wishes,

Pete

J-D · 11-18-2008, 06:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

Quote:

Originally Posted by avi

Thank you Sheshbazzar, for your well written response, I understand the situation, a bit more clearly.
With regard to the original post of this thread, could the Nazarenes have prepared frescoes with these images, or, in your opinion, are the wall decorations evidence that this household could not have been Nazarene? In other words, could a Jewish sect, living adjacent to a synagogue in a small town situated on the west bank of the Euphrates river, eighteen hundred years ago, have constructed such images, and/or written such graffiti, or, in your opinion, are frescoes depicting these themes, artistic endeavors, creation of which would violate Jewish/Nazarene customs and tradition?

I has been a long thread, perhaps you did not read, or have forgotten the contents of post #113? in answer to this query.

coupled with POST #180

Quote:

Originally Posted by avi

Or, have I once again, misunderstood?

The Jewish hope and expectation for the arrival of their promised Messiah is amply expresed throughout The TaNaKa, and was an integral part of Jewish religious belief, well before The Scriptures (ha'TaNaKa) were ever translated into the Greek of The LXX.
Thus there were Jewish believers in The Messiah for centuries before the claimed birth of the Nazarene. The possibility that some among these applied or accepted some form of the word NTZR as pertaining to themselves is presently an unknown.
We do know by Hebrew texts that they did often use words in ways that by our presently linguistic standards are quite incomprehensible, and unexplainable, Translators often can only resort to giving some difficult constructions their best shot interpretations based on context, as the actual words as they are spelled or arranged violate any normal rules.
The LXX Greek fumbles and stumbles in many places, and has no way of accurately conveying the depth and the breadth inherent in the original idioms.

So, with the 3rd century B.C. availability and accessibility of The LXX to a large gentile audience, these began to examine the words of The Jewish Prophets, and to reason and consider just -where- and -how- they of the Nations fit into the Big Picture,

Why would they do that? Why they have any interest in the words of the Jewish prophets? Why would they think that the Septuagint told of a 'Big Picture' into which their 'nations' should fit? Why wouldn't any Greek-speaking Gentiles who somehow came across the Septuagint simply say 'Hmm, total bunch of crap'?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

consequently developing their own ideas, theories, theology, and "christology", one that developed parallel with, but separate from, the religion of Judaism.

"Paul" ends up getting credited as being the individual (sic) that receives a "vision" from heaven with all these "new" ideas for a "Gentile" gospel, and dispensation. "New" ideas that had actually been hammered out and constructed by others over the preceding 3 centuries.

No WHAM! BAMM! and SHAZAM! and suddenly "Paul" gets a "vision" and a revealed "Gospel to The Gentiles" cute story, but,
It simply never happened that way, rather, it was all worked out, and plotted out well in advance.

What was going on amongst The Messianic Jews at that time was something considerably different, while they were the originators of most of the familiar sayings, tropes and stories found in the Gospels, these were the product of an entirely different agenda, than those ends that they were being adapted and bent to by those outsider gentiles latter called "christians".
James and the other pillars of the Jerusalem Jewish Nazarene Apostles looked on with disdain, and held themselves apart, from the antics and frenzy of these gentile dogs.

Sheshbazzar · 11-18-2008, 08:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by J-D

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

I has been a long thread, perhaps you did not read, or have forgotten the contents of post #113? in answer to this query.
coupled with POST #180

The Jewish hope and expectation for the arrival of their promised Messiah is amply expresed throughout The TaNaKa, and was an integral part of Jewish religious belief, well before The Scriptures (ha'TaNaKa) were ever translated into the Greek of The LXX.
Thus there were Jewish believers in The Messiah for centuries before the claimed birth of the Nazarene. The possibility that some among these applied or accepted some form of the word NTZR as pertaining to themselves is presently an unknown.
We do know by Hebrew texts that they did often use words in ways that by our presently linguistic standards are quite incomprehensible, and unexplainable, Translators often can only resort to giving some difficult constructions their best shot interpretations based on context, as the actual words as they are spelled or arranged violate any normal rules.
The LXX Greek fumbles and stumbles in many places, and has no way of accurately conveying the depth and the breadth inherent in the original idioms.

So, with the 3rd century B.C. availability and accessibility of The LXX to a large gentile audience, these began to examine the words of The Jewish Prophets, and to reason and consider just -where- and -how- they of the Nations fit into the Big Picture,

Why would they do that? Why they have any interest in the words of the Jewish prophets? Why would they think that the Septuagint told of a 'Big Picture' into which their 'nations' should fit? Why wouldn't any Greek-speaking Gentiles who somehow came across the Septuagint simply say 'Hmm, total bunch of crap'?

Why would they do that? far rather why wouldn't they? The stories were well composed, interesting, entertaining, and once easily accessible in the common language, found to deal with many of those same problems that are common to the "human condition" of ALL mankind, regardless of the age, the nationality, the religion, or the particular god of the reader.

They could, with the availability of the LXX now read;

"In thy seed shall ALL the nations of the earth be blessed;"

and "Many nations shall be joined to YHWH in that day, and shall be My people:"

and "O YHWH, my strength, and my fortress, and my refuge in the day of affliction, the Gentiles shall come unto thee from the ends of the earth"

-along with many other good and desirable promises.
And could perceive, and know themselves, even being Gentiles, as not excluded, but promised as being included. And the prophecies not coming to pass except that the blessings and promises to the NATIONS also be kept.

The rulers, kings, and scholars of many nations and religions have read and contemplated the words of the Hebrew Scriptures.

Yes, Surely some Greek speaking Gentiles certainly did say "Hmm, total bunch of crap" that however did not dissuade the hopes of others, who chose to hang around the synagogues, and seek after whatever crumbs they might find under The Masters table.
After all, daily life in the Roman empire was ofttimes brutal, with oppressive taxation, oppression, poverty, and disease, a miserable life, and an early grave being the lot of many.
Not at all odd then, that both among the Greeks and also among those nations whom they had subjugated, that those so suffering would readily bend an ear to these good promises of better things to come, and lay claim those promises for their own.
The same reasons that billions of Gentiles down through the ages have NOT said "Hmm, total bunch of crap" but have rather said "I believe", and been willing to lose their lives for that high hope, rather than to ever relinquish it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

consequently developing their own ideas, theories, theology, and "christology", one that developed parallel with, but separate from, the religion of Judaism.

"Paul" ends up getting credited as being the individual (sic) that receives a "vision" from heaven with all these "new" ideas for a "Gentile" gospel, and dispensation. "New" ideas that had actually been hammered out and constructed by others over the preceding 3 centuries.

No WHAM! BAMM! and SHAZAM! and suddenly "Paul" gets a "vision" and a revealed "Gospel to The Gentiles" cute story, but,
It simply never happened that way, rather, it was all worked out, and plotted out well in advance.

What was going on amongst The Messianic Jews at that time was something considerably different, while they were the originators of most of the familiar sayings, tropes and stories found in the Gospels, these were the product of an entirely different agenda, than those ends that they were being adapted and bent to by those outsider gentiles latter called "christians".
James and the other pillars of the Jerusalem Jewish Nazarene Apostles looked on with disdain, and held themselves apart, from the antics and frenzy of these gentile dogs.

J-D · 11-19-2008, 01:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

Quote:

Originally Posted by J-D

Why would they do that? Why they have any interest in the words of the Jewish prophets? Why would they think that the Septuagint told of a 'Big Picture' into which their 'nations' should fit? Why wouldn't any Greek-speaking Gentiles who somehow came across the Septuagint simply say 'Hmm, total bunch of crap'?

Why would they do that? far rather why wouldn't they? The stories were well composed, interesting, entertaining, and once easily accessible in the common language, found to deal with many of those same problems that are common to the "human condition" of ALL mankind, regardless of the age, the nationality, the religion, or the particular god of the reader.

They could, with the availability of the LXX now read;

"In thy seed shall ALL the nations of the earth be blessed;"

and "Many nations shall be joined to YHWH in that day, and shall be My people:"

and "O YHWH, my strength, and my fortress, and my refuge in the day of affliction, the Gentiles shall come unto thee from the ends of the earth"

-along with many other good and desirable promises.
And could perceive, and know themselves, even being Gentiles, as not excluded, but promised as being included. And the prophecies not coming to pass except that the blessings and promises to the NATIONS also be kept.

The rulers, kings, and scholars of many nations and religions have read and contemplated the words of the Hebrew Scriptures.

Yes, Surely some Greek speaking Gentiles certainly did say "Hmm, total bunch of crap" that however did not dissuade the hopes of others, who chose to hang around the synagogues, and seek after whatever crumbs they might find under The Masters table.
After all, daily life in the Roman empire was ofttimes brutal, with oppressive taxation, oppression, poverty, and disease, a miserable life, and an early grave being the lot of many.
Not at all odd then, that both among the Greeks and also among those nations whom they had subjugated, that those so suffering would readily bend an ear to these good promises of better things to come, and lay claim those promises for their own.
The same reasons that billions of Gentiles down through the ages have NOT said "Hmm, total bunch of crap" but have rather said "I believe", and been willing to lose their lives for that high hope, rather than to ever relinquish it.

My question could have been answered much more simply by saying 'There's one born every minute'. But I forgot that, so I owe you thanks for reminding me.

Sheshbazzar · 11-19-2008, 08:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by J-D

Why would they do that? Why they have any interest in the words of the Jewish prophets? Why would they think that the Septuagint told of a 'Big Picture' into which their 'nations' should fit? Why wouldn't any Greek-speaking Gentiles who somehow came across the Septuagint simply say 'Hmm, total bunch of crap'?

Quote:

Originally Posted by J-D

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

Why would they do that? far rather why wouldn't they? The stories were well composed, interesting, entertaining, and once easily accessible in the common language, found to deal with many of those same problems that are common to the "human condition" of ALL mankind, regardless of the age, the nationality, the religion, or the particular god of the reader.

They could, with the availability of the LXX now read;

"In thy seed shall ALL the nations of the earth be blessed;"

and "Many nations shall be joined to YHWH in that day, and shall be My people:"

and "O YHWH, my strength, and my fortress, and my refuge in the day of affliction, the Gentiles shall come unto thee from the ends of the earth"

-along with many other good and desirable promises.
And could perceive, and know themselves, even being Gentiles, as not excluded, but promised as being included. And the prophecies not coming to pass except that the blessings and promises to the NATIONS also be kept.

The rulers, kings, and scholars of many nations and religions have read and contemplated the words of the Hebrew Scriptures.

Yes, Surely some Greek speaking Gentiles certainly did say "Hmm, total bunch of crap" that however did not dissuade the hopes of others, who chose to hang around the synagogues, and seek after whatever crumbs they might find under The Masters table.
After all, daily life in the Roman empire was ofttimes brutal, with oppressive taxation, oppression, poverty, and disease, a miserable life, and an early grave being the lot of many.
Not at all odd then, that both among the Greeks and also among those nations whom they had subjugated, that those so suffering would readily bend an ear to these good promises of better things to come, and lay claim those promises for their own.
The same reasons that billions of Gentiles down through the ages have NOT said "Hmm, total bunch of crap" but have rather said "I believe", and been willing to lose their lives for that high hope, rather than to ever relinquish it.

My question could have been answered much more simply by saying 'There's one born every minute'. But I forgot that, so I owe you thanks for reminding me.

Not really, as such a reply would not have adequately addressed your four separate questions and concerns.
If you don't want to receive detailed answers, then simply stop with the posing of such trite questions.
Keep on asking such, and you will keep receiving answers that you don't like.

And certainly the rate is far higher than one every minute.

(eta)
But thank you, for the additional opportunity to further explain why there would have been Gentile Believers as early as the 3rd century B.C., and that these would have also been earnestly awaiting the -"Christ"- figure described in The LXX , making them the first, and original "Christ"-ians, centuries before the alleged events related in The NT.

I think I need to point out to you, that I do not believe those stories, found either of the "Old" or of the "New Testaments", but I am able to follow and respect the thought processes that were involved in the creation of these LEGENDS, and my fellow humans reasons for clinging on to hope, and for exercising faith.
There is a difference between myth and LEGEND. Legend is created and promoted to serve specific social needs.
The Jewish religion's peculiar LEGENDS and customs served to unify a small and otherwise insignificant nation in the midst powerful and what would have otherwise been overwhelming powers. The LEGEND of YAH-hoshua,(Numbers 13:16) "YAHs-Deliverer" ("Joshua" sic) was just revived and continuated as Judas Maccabee's "watchword" and midrashed into the iconic LEGENDARY Messianic figure of Y'shua-ben-Y'oseph, called by the Gentile "christians"- "Joshua the christ", "Jesus Christ", but then they also pronounced the name "Joshua" of the Old Testement as "Iasus" as had been the custom at least since the introduction of The LXX.

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11-18-2008, 10:30 AM	#453
spin Contributor Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: nowhere Posts: 15,747	The luck of the draw According to Clark Hopkins, the archaeologist who wrote "The Discovery of Dura-Europos", mentioned earlier, it was the expedition's intention to take back the synagogue paintings to Yale and leave those from the house-church and the mythraeum to the then Syrian government. However, at the last moment, the Syrians decided they wanted the synagogue paintings, so the Americans were left with the house-church frescoes. From the photos in this book, the synagogue frescoes were really impressive. (I just wonder where they are now. Perhaps on display in Damascus or maybe Deir ez-Zor, but I doubt it.) spin

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11-18-2008, 10:36 AM	#454
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	I've seen a few of the Synagogue frescoes in the Skirball Museum in Los Angeles. I suspect the Syrians recognized their value.

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