Johnny Skeptic

The New York Times has me beat. They copy their newspapers millions of times every day. Early Christians had me beat too. They copied manuscripts thousands of times.

I have made similar posts at the GRD Forum, the MF&P Forum, and the EofG Forum. I like to use arguments that I find to be the most effective. I have discovered that questioning the MOTIVES of God is much more effective than questioning WHAT HE HAS DONE. If a supernatural being inspired the writing of the Bible, you do not have a clue whether or not he has revealed his true intentions. The Bible must be accepted by faith alone or rejected.

Well, it was Paul who got me interested in this approach. 2 Corinthians
11:14-15 say "And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works." In other words, "It is not surprising that Satan masquerades as an angel of light." How about "It is not surprising that God masquerades as an angel of light"?

Katastrophikus

I've always had another take on it. I've always asked myself: "If Satan succeeded in tempting Jesus while he was fasting in the desert, would he tell anyone?"

I have to agree with Johnny: there is no way of knowing what motivates these higher beings. It all seems pretty mischievous and arbitrary.

Helpmabob

Hi Johnny - They consider that things can be known; that things can be made sense of. They are not suggesting that the truth cannot be known. Early Christians had me beat too. They didn’t have printing presses though. Despite this, they knew that the gospel was precious enough for to them to reproduce it laboriously by hand.If you mean, specifically, God is bad and deceiving us all for evil intentions, Johnny that is specious. It is effective only in killing discussion.Here’s what I think you are doing: you are questioning God’s character even though you don’t believe in Him; you are saying why you think God can’t exist by examining things that needn’t be attributed to God anyway. It doesn’t make sense. Most people here prefer things that make sense.The alternative you are suggesting is what this time exactly: God doesn’t exist; God is evil; God is good but tells lies?I don’t deny that faith plays a part in accepting the gospel, but there is a shed load of corroborating evidence around.What: both of them? Where then would light come from to show us what darkness is?

The good news is He wasn’t tempted. For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet was without sin.[Hebrews 4:15]

Johnny Skeptic

Message to helpmabob: If the universe was created by an intelligent being, what evidence do you have that that being is the God of the Bible? It seems to me that if a supernatural being inspired the writing of the Bible, we do not know whether or not he created the universe, and whether or not he revealed his true intentions. Any notions one way or the other would be mere speculation and guesswork.

Helpmabob

Who did the creating? In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.[Genesis 1:1] Where was His intention? For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.[Romans 1:20]It really is straightforward and easy to understand - you either believe or you don't.

Jack the Bodiless

...Uh, Helpmabob, you seem to be forgetting that the Bible is bunk.

Johnny is correct: we do NOT know these things. And that "we" includes you (even though you'd like to pretend otherwise). You're certainly not presenting any actual evidence to support your belief.

This thread is entitled "prophecy". And it was established some time ago that the Bible doesn't actually contain any verifiably-fulfilled prophecy, whereas it DOES include some failed prophecy. So why is the discussion continuing as if the Bible is still true? What's the point of posting Bible quotes?

Johnny Skeptic

I don't know, that is why I am asking you. If a supernatural being created the universe, what evidence do you have that that being is the God of the Bible? Are you saying that an evil supernatural being could not have inspired the writing of the Bible? Paul says that it is not surprising that Satan masquerades as an angel of light? How could Paul have known that an evil supernatural being did not tell him that?

Helpmabob

Hi Jack – It depends on your precise definition of ‘know’. We know the sun will rise tomorrow don’t we, but we don’t because it hasn’t happened yet. If you go far enough down this path, you end up saying that nothing can be known because there is a deceptive God.

I have seen prophecy play out in my own daily life and I have faith that prophecy can occur. Please tell me what your faith is in? If we do not know these things, then I’m unsure what makes atheists correct and christians wrong.I’m much happier discussing prophetic aspects of the Bible as per the thread title. Johnny is not correct: things can be known and depended upon. Every one on this forum insists that some things can be known. We only differ on the content of what those things are.

I don’t accept your conjecture that the Bible contains no fulfilled prophecy nor any prophecy yet to be fulfilled. It is absolutely stacked full of it. We may have to agree to disagree on this. Any examples I give are ridiculed.It’s not necessarily for your enjoyment or entertainment. This is Bible criticism section, but if the Bible were not defended by some people, what good would criticism be? It is also the good news of hope and redemption to mankind.

You do know - I’ve just told you. What you mean is you don’t believe. There are things I don’t believe too. I assume you can differentiate between not knowing and not believing?

Johnny Skeptic

Message to Helpmabob: If good and evil supernatural beings exist, other than by faith, which of course the followers of all religions have, how do you suggest that people determine whether or not the most powerful supernatural being has revealed his true intentions? You claim that the God of the Bible has revealed his true intentions, but where is your evidence that this is true? An evil supernatural being with sufficient power would be able to conceal his true intentions if he wished to do so. He would be able to heal sick people and inspire people to write whatever he wanted them to write.

Similarly, a good supernatural being with sufficient power would be able to reveal his true intentions if he wished to do so. He would be able to heal sick people and inspire people to write whatever he wanted them to write. Since the God of the Bible allowed hundreds of millions to die without revealing his his specific existence and will to them, is it not a reasonable possibility that the creator of the universe plans to eventually reveal his specific existence and will to humans in the next life?

In the NIV, Isaiah 55:8 says "'For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways', declares the Lord." Christians typically refer to this verse when they cannot explain some of the strange things that God does that many people find to be questionable. So, I am now using the same verse to support my position that the creator of the universe might not be the supposed God of the Bible, and his ways might be strange too, including not revealing his specific existence and will to humans in this life.

Many Christians claim that since everyone has sinned, God is not obligated to save anyone. If that is true, then the creator of the universe, whoever he is, is not obligated to ever reveal his specific existence and will to anyone, or to ever save anyone.

Doug Shaver

OK. What is your definition of "know," precisely?