Freethought & Rationalism Archive

sotto voce · 02-24-2012, 01:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

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Originally Posted by sotto voce

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Originally Posted by semiopen

I think there is general agreement that they haven't found anything to make one think that Bethlehem was inhabited.

Where is there a sign of this agreement?

Check the link I posted.

That appears to be the work of one person— which cannot constitute general agreement.

ApostateAbe · 02-24-2012, 02:10 PM

Toto, I am going to take another guess: there are no professional archaeologists who believe that there was no settlement in Bethlehem of Judea around the year 1 CE. Not even one, but that is just a guess. Regardless, it would be a very unlikely "standard view," because we have historical evidence of Bethlehem in Judea from the gospels (1st century) and archaeological evidence of Bethlehem in Judea from the early 2nd century.

Toto · 02-24-2012, 02:27 PM

How about trying to back up your guess with some research?

ApostateAbe · 02-24-2012, 02:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

How about trying to back up your guess with some research?

That would require time and trouble on my part. I feel less responsibility to back up my guesses with research than I do for my extraordinary assertions of certain facts.

Toto · 02-24-2012, 02:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ApostateAbe

Toto, I am going to take another guess: there are no professional archaeologists who believe that there was no settlement in Bethlehem of Judea around the year 1 CE. Not even one, but that is just a guess. Regardless, it would be a very unlikely "standard view," because we have historical evidence of Bethlehem in Judea from the gospels (1st century) and archaeological evidence of Bethlehem in Judea from the early 2nd century.

So how do you account for Aviram Oshri, a senior archaeologist with the Israel Antiquities Authority? Are you going to quibble that he only said there is no evidence of a settlement there, but he didn't go out on a limb and say that there definitely was no settlement there?

Where do you find evidence of Bethlehem in Judea in the 2nd century? Oshri only talks about evidence from the 6th century.

And the gospels don't count as historical evidence.

Religious Tolerance

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Some liberal Christians are convinced by the lack of archaeological evidence in Bethlehem, Judea and the presence of archaeological evidence in Bethlehem, Galilee. They conclude that he was probably born in the Galilee. Further, according to theologians Don Cuppitt and Peter Armstrong, "...our first principle of historical criticism must be: be wary of any details in the gospels which have close parallels in the Old Testament." ¹⁰ Their reasoning was that Christians in the first century CE diligently searched the Hebrew Scriptures (Old Testament) for references for the coming Messiah. They would have found the reference to Bethlehem, Judea, in Micah 5:3 and assumed that Jesus must have been born there. So, the authors of Matthew and Luke would have followed this tradition by inventing a story to match the Hebrew Scriptures.

Toto · 02-24-2012, 02:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ApostateAbe

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

How about trying to back up your guess with some research?

That would require time and trouble on my part. I feel less responsibility to back up my guesses with research than I do for my extraordinary assertions of certain facts.

If you don't have time to google a few key words, you don't really have time to be posting.

ApostateAbe · 02-24-2012, 02:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Quote:

Originally Posted by ApostateAbe

Toto, I am going to take another guess: there are no professional archaeologists who believe that there was no settlement in Bethlehem of Judea around the year 1 CE. Not even one, but that is just a guess. Regardless, it would be a very unlikely "standard view," because we have historical evidence of Bethlehem in Judea from the gospels (1st century) and archaeological evidence of Bethlehem in Judea from the early 2nd century.

So how do you account for Aviram Oshri, a senior archaeologist with the Israel Antiquities Authority? Are you going to quibble that he only said there is no evidence of a settlement there, but he didn't go out on a limb and say that there definitely was no settlement there?

I would quibble by saying that Aviram Oshri claimed nothing of the sort you claimed.

Vorkosigan · 02-24-2012, 03:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ApostateAbe

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

How about trying to back up your guess with some research?

That would require time and trouble on my part. I feel less responsibility to back up my guesses with research than I do for my extraordinary assertions of certain facts.

:rolling::rolling::rolling::rolling:

That's classic, AA. I'll treasure that.

Q: How about trying to back up your guess with some research?
A: That would require time and trouble on my part.

sotto voce · 02-24-2012, 03:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Quote:

Originally Posted by ApostateAbe

Toto, I am going to take another guess: there are no professional archaeologists who believe that there was no settlement in Bethlehem of Judea around the year 1 CE. Not even one, but that is just a guess. Regardless, it would be a very unlikely "standard view," because we have historical evidence of Bethlehem in Judea from the gospels (1st century) and archaeological evidence of Bethlehem in Judea from the early 2nd century.

So how do you account for Aviram Oshri, a senior archaeologist with the Israel Antiquities Authority?

One would not guess that he is an archaeologist. He writes like a cheap journalist.

'The town of Bethlehem in the West Bank, some six miles south of Jerusalem, is revered by millions as the birthplace of Jesus.'

He writes like someone with a vested interest in finding what he claims to have found. Maybe with a touch of glee. It's fit for the bin, to be honest, even if the research has some validity.

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Are you going to quibble that he only said there is no evidence of a settlement there, but he didn't go out on a limb and say that there definitely was no settlement there?

Why would anyone find evidence beneath a built up urban conurbation, riven by war and disputes? Needles and haystacks come to mind.

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And the gospels don't count as historical evidence.

Because?

Toto · 02-24-2012, 03:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sotto voce

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

So how do you account for Aviram Oshri, a senior archaeologist with the Israel Antiquities Authority?

One would not guess that he is an archaeologist. He writes like a cheap journalist. ...

You are probably reading the product of a translator and an editor.

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Why would anyone find evidence beneath a built up urban conurbation, riven by war and disputes? Needles and haystacks come to mind.

There's money to be made in that there tourist trade. People have looked.

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And the gospels don't count as historical evidence.

Because?

For the reasons given in the quote that you cut out. You have a habit of doing that.

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02-24-2012, 02:10 PM	#22
ApostateAbe Contributor Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: MT Posts: 10,656	Toto, I am going to take another guess: there are no professional archaeologists who believe that there was no settlement in Bethlehem of Judea around the year 1 CE. Not even one, but that is just a guess. Regardless, it would be a very unlikely "standard view," because we have historical evidence of Bethlehem in Judea from the gospels (1st century) and archaeological evidence of Bethlehem in Judea from the early 2nd century.

02-24-2012, 02:27 PM	#23
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	How about trying to back up your guess with some research?

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