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Old 12-27-2011, 11:17 PM   #11
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YHWH is a 'shaddi'. "Other Elohim", (Eli'leem) of the Nations are all 'shad'deem.
Shad'deem being the plural form of a shad or shaddi.
You're conflating two different roots. The epithet אל*שדי (literally, "God of the Mountains") has nothing to do with the term שדים from Deut 32:17, etc (literally, "demons"). The following discuss the former, but deal in some depth with the latter as well:

Frank Moore Cross, Canaanite Myth and Hebrew Epic: Essays in the History of the Religion of Israel (Cambridge, Mass.: Harvard University Press, 1973), 52–60.

E. L. Abel, “The Nature of the Patriarchal God ‘El Shadday,’” Numen 20.1 (1973): 48–59.

David Biale,” The God with Breasts: El Shaddai in the Bible,” History of Religions 21.3 (1982): 240–56.

A. Caquot, “Une contribution ougaritique a la prehistoire du titre divin Shadday,” in Congress Volume Paris, 1992 (J. A. Emerton, ed.; Leiden: Brill, 1995), 1–12.

M. Weippert, “שַׁדַּי Šadday (Divine Name),” in Theological Lexicon of the Old Testament (Ernst Jenni and Claus Westermann, eds.; Peabody, Mass.: Hendrickson, 1997), 3.1304–10.

Harriet Lutzky, “Shadday as a Goddess Epithet,” Vetus Testamentum 48:1 (1998): 15–36.

“Shadday שׁדי,” in Dictionary of Deities and Demons in the Bible. Second Edition, Extensively Revised (Karel van der Toorn, Bob Becking, and Pieter W. van der Horst, eds.; Leiden: Brill, 1999], 749–53.

Joann Hackett, The Balaam Texts from Deir ‘Alla (Chico, Calif.: Scholars Press, 1984), 85–89.

John Day, Yahweh and the Gods and Goddesses of Canaan (Sheffield: Sheffield Academic Press, 2000), 32–34.

Mark S. Smith, The Early History of God: Yahweh and Other Deities in Ancient Israel. Second Edition (Grand Rapids, Mich.: Eerdmans, 2002), 34, 58–59.

Francesca Stavrakopoulou, King Manasseh and Child Sacrifice: Biblical Distortions of Historical Realities (Berlin: Walter De Gruyter, 2004), 270–82

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Thus the shad'eem are no more 'demons' than YHWH, or YHWH is likewise a 'demon'.

The perjorative sense displayed in translations is not an integral element or understanding of the original terms usages.
Yes, it actually is. The rhetorical value of Deut 32:17 is deflated otherwise, and the term is only ever used pejoratively.

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Israel had its El 'YHWH', and other nations were accepted to each have had their 'El's (Elohim) by their repective names, which could be figurative and invisable national 'mascot' 'God's' similar to YHWH, or be embodied in whatever ruler or rulers those nations accepted as being the living embodiments of their 'god's' (Elo'heem)

Latter theological development in Israel elevated Israel's Elohim 'YHWH' to a position of superiority over all of these other nations Elohim, essentially attempting through a co-opting of the language, and Israeli nationalisim, to disnfranchise all the other nations and their priesthoods from that common heritage of these ancient terms for deity.

It is often forgotten that the religion of Judaisim was not the originator of these ancient terms and titles, and that they had existed and been employed by other peoples, nations, and their religions long before the first 'Hebrew' or 'Jew' ever walked the earth.
The usages of the Torah, or other Jewish writings do not, and cannot be used to authoratively dictate what or to whom these terms might apply.
This is more metaphysical speculation than etymology or lexicography.
For brevities sake I'll only reiterate;
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Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar
It is often forgotten that the religion of Judaisim was not the originator of these ancient terms and titles, and that they had existed and been employed by other peoples, nations, and their religions long before the first 'Hebrew' or 'Jew' ever walked the earth.
The usages of the Torah, or other Jewish writings do not, and cannot be used to authoratively dictate what or to whom these terms might apply.
Which is exactly what you are attemting to do in the above.
The Semitic linguistic root idioms existed long before 'the Hebrew people' came into being or these 'Jewish' texts were composed.
You are now attempting to use the content of those late 'Jewish' produced texts to dogmaticly impose and dictate the range and 'acceptable' usages of terms THAT DID NOT ORIGINATE WITH THE 'HEBREWS' OR WITH THESE 'JEWISH' TEXTS.

Your 'Abraham' the 'Hebrew' was a Johnny-come-lately on the religious scene, the religious terms and titles he employed came from his contemporary non-Jewish cultures.
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Old 12-27-2011, 11:24 PM   #12
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Which is exactly what you are attemting to do in the above.
Usage dictates the referents, not etymology. This is one of the most fundamental rules of lexicography.

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The Semitic linguistic root idioms existed long before 'the Hebrew people' came into being or Jewish texts were composed.
And the meanings of those roots changed drastically over time through usage.

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You are now attempting to use the content of those late 'Jewish' produced texts to impose and dictate the range and acceptable usages of terms THAT DID NOT ORIGINATE WITH THE 'HEBREWS' OR WITH THESE 'JEWISH' TEXTS.
Are you seriously trying to argue that Jews are not allowed to use certain terms to mean what they want because they originally meant something else and that's not allowed to change? Tell me, what formal training do you have in any ancient Near Eastern languages?

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Your 'Abraham' the 'Hebrew' was a Johnny-come-lately on the religious scene, the religious terms and titles he employed came from his contemporary non-Jewish cultures.
I'm far more aware of where these terms come from than you, and the meanings of words change constantly because of usage. The notion that the original meaning is the only meaning is a punchline, not a legitimate linguistic framework.
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Old 12-28-2011, 12:30 AM   #13
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Which is exactly what you are attemting to do in the above.
Usage dictates the referents, not etymology. This is one of the most fundamental rules of lexicography.
To comprehed terms as they were originally employed, one must be willing to set aside such latter imposed altrations and definitions that arise out of cultural drift.


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Originally Posted by Maklelan
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The Semitic linguistic root idioms existed long before 'the Hebrew people' came into being or Jewish texts were composed.
And the meanings of those roots changed drastically over time through usage.
Exactly. 6th and 5th century BCE Jewish composed texts impose latter ideas and interpretations upon these terms that altered and limited their previous range of meaning. 'El' of 5th century BCE Judah and 'Jewish Scripture' was no longer the culturally and multi-nationally inclusive 'El' of previous millnia, but one now shackled exclusively to the 'Jewish' form of religion and State.


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Originally Posted by Maklelan
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You are now attempting to use the content of those late 'Jewish' produced texts to impose and dictate the range and acceptable usages of terms THAT DID NOT ORIGINATE WITH THE 'HEBREWS' OR WITH THESE 'JEWISH' TEXTS.
Are you seriously trying to argue that Jews are not allowed to use certain terms to mean what they want because they originally meant something else and that's not allowed to change? Tell me, what formal training do you have in any ancient Near Eastern languages?
Jews are 'allowed' to do whatever they damn well please with their terms and texts. Yet it needs recognised that what 'Jews' have done or will do in their reinterpting of these ancient Semitic terms, imposes no obligations upon the rest of humanity or the diciplines of anthropological examination to either accept, or to conform to those 'Jewish' innovations of interpretation or their attempted imposed limitations.
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Originally Posted by Maklelan
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Your 'Abraham' the 'Hebrew' was a Johnny-come-lately on the religious scene, the religious terms and titles he employed came from his contemporary non-Jewish cultures.
I'm far more aware of where these terms come from than you, and the meanings of words change constantly because of usage. The notion that the original meaning is the only meaning is a punchline, not a legitimate linguistic framework.
Yet those changes of meaning cumulatively distort and corrupt accurate understanding of the original usages.
You choose to 'buy into' these latter 'Jewish' invented altered interpretations and limitations even though you openly admit that you know that they change and obscure the origins and the original extensive and culturally inclusive applications of the terms.

I do not so consider myself obligated to assist the religion of Judaism in the pilfering and exclusionary co-opting of a formerly inclusive religious heritage open to all.
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Old 12-28-2011, 06:54 AM   #14
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To comprehed terms as they were originally employed, one must be willing to set aside such latter imposed altrations and definitions that arise out of cultural drift.
But we're not looking for the terms as they were originally employed, we're looking for the terms as they're used in a specific text.

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Exactly. 6th and 5th century BCE Jewish composed texts impose latter ideas and interpretations upon these terms that altered and limited their previous range of meaning.
There's not a word in existence that does not have "latter ideas and interpretartions" imposed upon it. This is natural and inevitable, not sinister.

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'El' of 5th century BCE Judah and 'Jewish Scripture' was no longer the culturally and multi-nationally inclusive 'El' of previous millnia, but one now shackled exclusively to the 'Jewish' form of religion and State.
Still incorrect. El remained a generic noun well after the 5th century that could refer to any deity. However, tJewish theology did change, and a lot of divine attributes originally associated with other deities were conflated in Yhwh. This is also pretty natural in the ancient Near East. To insist that when the Jews did it it was somehow sinister is just silly.

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Jews are 'allowed' to do whatever they damn well please with their terms and texts. Yet it needs recognised that what 'Jews' have done or will do in their reinterpting of these ancient Semitic terms, imposes no obligations upon the rest of humanity or the diciplines of anthropological examination to either accept, or to conform to those 'Jewish' innovations of interpretation or their attempted imposed limitations.
Of course not. Words mean whatever people use them to mean. When trying to figure out what they mean in a Jewish text, though, you have to let Jewish usage dictate the meaning. You didn't answer my other question, though. How much formal training do you have in the languages of the ancient Near East?

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Yet those changes of meaning cumulatively distort and corrupt accurate understanding of the original usages.
We're not wondering about the original usages, though. We're wondering about usage in a specific text.

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You choose to 'buy into' these latter 'Jewish' invented altered interpretations and limitations even though you openly admit that you know that they change and obscure the origins and the original extensive and culturally inclusive applications of the terms.
You simply do not have the foggiest idea what you're talking about.

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I do not so consider myself obligated to assist the religion of Judaism in the pilfering and exclusionary co-opting of a formerly inclusive religious heritage open to all.
This is a level of religious bigotry I never thought I'd see. You're actually getting upset with the Jews for lexical misappropriation? Are you not aware that all cultures in the ancient Near East did this?
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Old 12-28-2011, 02:13 PM   #15
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I don't think the HEbrew Bible shows changes in their beliefs over time because I don't think their beliefs changed over time. That is my opinion, and I don't claim to be able to prove it.
Examine what the Hebrew texts reveal. You say '(you) don't think the Hebrew Bible shows changes in their beliefs over time.'

But the Hebrew Bible clearly reveals many situations that show that large segements of the Hebrew population held to beliefs and practices that the faction which composed the Hebrew Biblical texts forcefully suppressed, quite often by means of mass fratricide.
Of course the beliefs of the Hebrews peoples changed over time, when all dissenting opinions were effectively silenced by extermination those segments of the populace, or were forced into conformity to the demands and extortions of Jewish Yahwhisim at the point of a sword.
The original HEBREW hill tribes were not 'Jewish', and did not practice the 'Jewish' Biblical form of religion.
The Jewish 'Bible' as much as states that fact.
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Old 12-28-2011, 02:23 PM   #16
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Examine what the Hebrew texts reveal. You say '(you) don't think the Hebrew Bible shows changes in their beliefs over time.'

But the Hebrew Bible clearly reveals many situations that show that large segements of the Hebrew population held to beliefs and practices that the faction which composed the Hebrew Biblical texts forcefully suppressed, quite often by means of mass fratricide.
No, no such "mass fratricide" ever occurred. There's no evidence anywhere for such a silly notion. Additionally, the biblical authors themselves were the objects of ideological suppression, and they disagree with each other just as much as the aristocracy disagreed with the masses.

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Of course the beliefs of the Hebrews peoples changed over time, when all dissenting opinions were effectively silenced by extermination those segments of the populace, or were forced into conformity to the demands and extortions of Jewish Yahwhisim at the point of a sword.
Can you provide evidence of any military suppressions of non-Yahwistic religious communities?

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The original HEBREW hill tribes were not 'Jewish', and did not practice the 'Jewish' Biblical form of religion.
The Jewish 'Bible' as much as states that fact.
You're taking a quite inconsistent and naive approach to reconstructing Israelite history.
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Old 12-29-2011, 01:06 AM   #17
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You are ignoring the content of your texts.
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Old 12-29-2011, 07:17 AM   #18
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You are ignoring the content of your texts.
I'm doing absolutely no such thing. I have extensively studied the Semitic background of the Hebrew words used in reference to God, including אל קנא ,אל קנה ,אלהים ,אל ,עליון ,יהוה ,אלוה ,שדי ,אל עולם and numerous others, with an eye specifically to their biblical context as well as their Northwest, East Semitic, and/or afro-Asiatic literary contexts. I actually understand the languages involved in this endeavor as well. You very clearly have not, and do not, so don't confuse your own ignorance on this matter for my lack of preparation.
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Old 12-29-2011, 04:44 PM   #19
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כי יסיתך אחיך בן־אמך או־בנך או־בתך או אשת חיקך או רעך אשר כנפשך בסתר לאמר נלכה ונעבדה אלהים אחרים אשר לא ידעת אתה ואבתיך׃
מאלהי העמים אשר סביבתיכם הקרבים אליך או הרחקים ממך מקצה הארץ ועד־קצה הארץ׃
לא־תאבה לו ולא תשמע אליו ולא־תחוס עינך עליו ולא־תחמל ולא־תכסה עליו׃
כי הרג תהרגנו ידך תהיה־בו בראשונה להמיתו ויד כל־העם באחרנה׃
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Old 12-29-2011, 05:29 PM   #20
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וישלח יהוא בכל־ישראל ויבאו כל־עבדי הבעל ולא־נשאר איש אשר לא־בא ויבאו בית הבעל וימלא בית־הבעל פה לפה׃

ויבאו לעשות זבחים ועלות ויהוא שם־לו בחוץ שמנים איש ויאמר האיש אשר־ימלט מן־האנשים אשר אני מביא על־ידיכם נפשו תחת נפשו׃
ויהי ככלתו לעשות העלה ויאמר יהוא לרצים ולשלשים באו הכום איש אל־יצא ויכום לפי־חרב וישלכו הרצים והשלשים

This is but one of the examples of how dissent from Yahwhisim was dealt with.
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