spin

So, God refers to himself in the 3rd person, eh?

What a 1st/2nd century Greek thinks is irrelevant to what a Hebrew text written some centuries prior means. Philology is obviously hard for you.

Could you stick to the subject? We are dealing here with gods, of whom it is said, "you are sons of the most high", who, incidentally, though not man (according to the Hebrew), shall die like man (get this, like man, singular) according to the judgment. Try again.

You know that ignorance is no recourse under the law.

Is that the best search you can do?

The phrase is "like a man to battle", that's how they appear to be arrayed. (And notice once again the singular, helping you to understand what is being said.)

Similes work in a particular way. X is like Y, which tells you X is not Y, but if you think about it you will find similarities between X and Y for the purpose of the writer. You might trust more if you looked at the word in a dictionary.

Look at KJV of 1 Sam 4:9, "quit yourselves like men". This is the idea you want, but unfortunately it is a different structure.

But it would help if you understood what you were talking about, for you would know that the text doesn't say, "like men", but "like man".

Ahhh, poor LP675, they are precisely your problem. You want them not to be gods, but to be “gods�. You have failed to demonstrate your case. If they are gods, then you are simply left in contradiction.

elohim stands in the council of el; in the midst of elohim he judges.


spin

GakuseiDon

He sure does. Are you going to say otherwise?

It certainly is relevant when discussing the beliefs of 1st/2nd century writers, which is when Christian theology was being formulated.

Perhaps that does indeed need to be cleared up. I thought the subject is "the reference to gods in the OT is not a problem for Christian theology". What do you think the topic is?

I think that LP has an excellent point about Psalm 2. Who is God calling His son? Is it a man or a god?

What is the difference, spin? Can you explain it?

This is Young's Literal Translation:

Psa 82:6 I -- I have said, `Gods ye [are], And sons of the Most High -- all of you,
Psa 82:7 But as man ye die, and as one of the heads ye fall,

If the judges thought that they were someone beyond men, then how would you interpret "as man ye die"? And how would you interpret "as one of the heads (chiefs)"?

God calls Moses "elohim". Was Moses a supernatural being?

Rymmie1981

If you read earlier in this thread, we already discussed that Moses was elevated to the level of god and given Aaron for his prophet by YHWH.

LP675

I am astounded that someone apparently as educated as you can be so obtuse. I don’t want them ‘not to be gods, but to be “gods�’. All my comments regarding the ‘gods’ in this case being humans were just in passing, and for the sake of the argument I said we would suppose they were gods (without the quotation marks, i.e. according to your definition ‘supernatural beings, interacting in the world, requiring worship). You haven’t attempted to address my argument, but just asserted I was “left in contradiction�. If you believe that is the case why not at least attempt to explain why?

I repeat although I don’t believe it is the case, lets assume for the sake of argument the ‘gods’ are actual supernatural beings in the same sense as your definition (like in Job 1:6).

spin

When I talk to you in an undefined context and say, "she is a Muslim", could you think that I'm talking about myself?

I know this is a bit hard for a poor xian, but you cannot assume connections you cannot demonstrate. Unprovenanced texts of centuries later need to be shown to be relevant to the original texts.

Talking about "sons of the most high", Gak pleads,

Sons of the most high. Gods.

Who is God calling "sons of the most high?" is more the question. They are deemed gods by God. So, if sons of the most high -- this latter taken to be a deity --, are gods why do you insist on calling them men? Because you are in an ideological bind that tells you you have to take somesuch desperate choice.

Our friend LP675 was attempting to turn a simile into an equality.

In both cases you find the simile indicated by K- like, but you don't care what the text actually says now, do you? If I say you are arguing like an idiot, does that mean you are an idiot?

What judges?? The entities in the council of El? amongst whom God can stand? those who are gods, sons of the most high?

Is there a problem with "like one of the princes"? Hebrew poetry uses parallelism quite a lot, repeating the idea with a minor change in significance to underline the idea. <<You all shall die like a man dies, even like a prince dies.>>

Read what the text actually says, "I have made you elohim to pharaoh..." Notice "to pharaoh"? Is God saying, "I have made you me"? Naturally not, though perhaps, "I have made you me to pharaoh". The context makes the significance very clear.

----------

Yahweh is a national god as is Kemosh or Marduk. He judges his nation as the others judge theirs. They are all sons of the most high, El, in whose council they sit. As you will recall there are strong parallels between Yahweh and Baal, the cloudrider who conquers the sea; now in Dan 7 we see the Baal figure, the one like a son of man, having conquered the sea and its monsters, riding the clouds back up to heaven to reclaim his place in the council of El, the ancient of days, where thrones are set up for the gods. The basic structure, the mythology all agree with the Ugaritic literature. However, just as Baal shines above the gods in Ugarit, so does Yahweh shine above the gods, for who is like Yahweh amongst the gods?


spin

LP675

No he wasn’t.
No, but it doesn’t mean he isn’t an idiot.

And why try to avoid the real issue? You still haven’t responded to my argument.

GakuseiDon

In an undefined context, no.

In Psalm 81, God refers to Himself in the 3rd person:

81:10 "I am the Lord (Yahweh) your God"...
81:15 "The haters of the Lord (Yahweh) would pretend submission to Him".

Is that an example of God talking about Himself in the 3rd person?

Fair enough.

OK.

But the passage in Psalm 2 uses "son of God" to refer to a man!!! Why is that irrelevant? Why can't "sons of the most high" also refer to men who have been given authority by God?

Those rulers with authority over the poor and needy, and can free them from the hand of the wicked. See Psalm 72: "He (the King) will judge your people... he will bring justice to the poor." That is a man.

Spin, which gods judged the poor and needy in the Israelite pantheon? Please, any evidence at all!

What on earth can "die like a prince" add to "die like a man" when we are talking about gods? It makes perfect sense if talking about rulers: it shows that no matter how powerful they are, they are still going to die. What does it add when talking about gods?

Spin, your interpretation makes no sense I'm afraid. I'm just wondering how much deeper you can dig that hole.

Indeed it does! God is saying: I have made you a "god" to Pharaoh. What does the word "god" mean in this context, Spin??? A supernatural creature? Or a ruler/judge?

So, why are they going to die "like men", "like princes"? Is El going to kill them?

Look at Ps 29:1 "Give unto the LORD ("Yahweh"), O ye mighty ("El"), give unto the LORD glory and strength"... Worship the Lord in the beauty of holiness".

So in Ps 29, Yahweh is above El. Doesn't that contradict your interpretation in Ps 82?

"El" - also can mean "men of rank".

"Elohim" - also means rulers, judges.

As such, Psalm 82 can easily be:
Ps 82:1 God stands in the congregation of the mighty ones
Ps 82:2 He judges among the rulers (of the world)

That seems to be the interpretation given today, and in the time of the gospel writers. I'm sure your interpretation is based on hard evidence, and not your interpretation only... isn't it? I've provided support for my position, at least.

Spin, you're out of your depth, I'm afraid. You're reading into the passage what you want, but to do that you have to ignore the evidence that is there, while at the same time unable to provide any evidence to support your suppositions.

I'd be interested though if you have any REAL data to support the idea that El was a god above Yahweh - but I would like your comments on Psalm 29. I'm fascinated by how your mind works!

Doctor X

See that Deuteronomy passage quoted a few pages above where El defines who gets what and YHWH gets Israel.

There is also a whole bunch of parallels from the Ugaritic texts.

--J.D.

LP675

Whoa check out this guy referring to himself in the third person! Freak!

GakuseiDon

That seems to be Deut 32:

6 Do you thus deal with the Lord, O foolish and unwise people? Is He not your Father, who bought you? Has He not made you and established you?
7 "Remember the days of old, Consider the years of many generations. Ask your father, and he will show you;
Your elders, and they will tell you:
8 When the Most High divided their inheritance to the nations,
When He separated the sons of Adam, He set the boundaries of the peoples According to the number of the children of Israel.
9 For the LORD's portion is His people; Jacob is the place of His inheritance.

In Deut 32:6, Moses says that Yahweh "made you". Are you saying that Yahweh made the people, and El split them into tribes? That wouldn't match Gen, which has Yahweh setting the boundaries.

Deut 32 seems to make sense in context, assuming "Most High" is another name for "Yahweh". It suggests other people had other gods, so is certainly evidence of henotheism, though not polytheism.