NotRegistered

I have a question just to see what people's opinion about the issue. I know some people say Jesus never really said He was God. But, He was crucified for saying He was God. So I believe if he didn't mean to get the point across that He was God then he would have been wise enough say "hey guys don't kill me cause I'm not saying I'm God" (or something more divine). But he never said that, or anything like it, so I believe this aids in the proof that Jesus believed and said He was God. Does anybody have a take on or rebuttal to that?

-DM-

[Note: The author of this feedback originally sent me an e-mail which asked if I were the same Donald Morgan who is the author of material on biblical criticism in the Secular Web Library, then asked me my opinion on this issue. I pointed out that I do not get involved in e-mail discussions of this sort for the reason that I much prefer such discussions to take place in the Feedback forum where more than just two people might benefit. I suggested, therefore, that the author post his comments and questions here, referencing my material in the Secular Web Library so that his comments and question would comprise legitimate feedback. That didn't quite happen, but I think his comments and questions nevertheless deserve a response. Following my brief response, I'll copy this to the Biblical Criticism & History forum where others can participate. "NotRegistered" should become a registered user of our discussion board if he wants to participate in the ongoing discussion. -DM-]

I have read several books which deal almost exclusively with the Trial and the Crucifixion of Jesus. It is definitely not a certainty that Jesus was crucified for "saying that He was God."

Background info:

1) Unless one takes the biblical "accounts" as being invariably accurate, it could not possibly be certain what Jesus did, in fact, say about himself. We know with certainty that the biblical accounts are not invariably accurate. Therefore, we cannot be certain what Jesus said about himself. Therefore, we cannot be certain that he claimed to be "God."

2) We cannot be absolutely certain why it was that Jesus was crucified. Crucifixion was of the Romans, however, and the Roman authorities would not necessarily be concerned about someone claiming to be "God." Several books which I have read which deal almost exclusively with the Trial and Crucifixion of Jesus indicate that one of the most commonly-held educated-guesses is that Jesus was crucified by the Roman authorities as an insurrectionist.

We could not possibly be certain of what any person has NOT said unless everything that had ever been said by the person under consideration had been accurately transcribed. We know that is not the case with Jesus, therefore we cannot be sure of what he never said.

Now, what did he allegedly say about himself?

He allegedly referred to himself as the "Son of Man," and as the "Son of God." He allegedly said such things as, "I and the Father are one." (I am not aware, however, of any verse where Jesus specifically claimed to be "God.") He also allegedly said such things as: "Why do you call me good. No one is good but God alone"; "The Father is greater than I"; "I do nothing on my own authority but speak thus as the Father taught me." Thus, there is sufficient inconsistency with regard to the statements that Jesus allegedly made about himself that people have been arguing ever since whether he was truly "God" incarnate; the issue will not likely be settled.

And finally, the most important point (although it is not directly relevant to the question at hand) is that it doesn't really matter what Jesus thought or said about himself. After all, he is neither the first nor the last to claim to be "God" incarnate or a "Son of God."

-Don-

dado

and you base this on...?

CX

Implicit in this line of reasoning is that the biblical accounts we have of Jesus are historically accurate and complete. Before you can even ask the question you are asking you need to support the underlying assertion. That being said what can we hypothesize about Jesus based on what we know of the period and personalities in question? It seems unlikely that a torah observant Jew would claim to be both the messiah and god incarnate. The idea of an incarnated god is foreign to Jewish theology and sounds more like an Hellenistic interpretation than a Jewish one.

Magdlyn

Probably:

and

Sounds like a prophet to me, not a god.


BTW, if you read all of John 18, you can see it is full of doublespeak, slick meaningless rejoinders and edits.

First, J is sent to Annas, FIL of the high priest Caiaphas. Why? Then he is sent to Caiaphas, but we do not see what Caiaphas says, b/c a scene with Peter in the courtyard is interjected. Back to Jesus, where he is immediately led away from Caiaphas to Pilate. Caiaphas' scene is left on cutting room floor.

And so forth.

Not_Registered

Let me clarify. I am NOT, nor do I claim to be, a religious, biblical or historic scholar. So I haven't meticulously researched the reason for Jesus' crucifixtion. All I am saying is if Jesus' WAS (if he wasn't them my question becomes erroneous and void)...but if He WAS crucified for saying that He was God, then I believe His failure to deny that accusation adds to the perception that He (Jesus) did believe that He was God. I, again, am disregarding what Jesus said througout his life and just focusing on WHY he was crucified. I am aware there might be some ulterior motives for Jesus' crucifixion, but if at the forefront the accusation that Jesus claimed to be God was the main reason for Jesus' crucifixion then that is where my question gains relevance.

CX

The problem is that's a mighty big IF. Crucifixion was a Roman punishment not a Jewish one. Claiming to be god was a violation of Jewish law not Roman. The Romans would not have executed someone for claiming to be the Jewish god YHVH incarnate they would have executed him for sedition. The whole of the passion narrative is inconsistent to the extent that we should strongly question the historicity of it. Without that we cannot say if Jesus was executed or why with any certainty.

But for the sake of argument let's say Jesus was crucified for claiming to be god (despite the fact that such is totally implausible). So what? What is the significance of Jesus believing himself to be god?

TySixtus

We had an interesting debate on this a few days ago in GRD. Basically, there is no passage mentioning Jesus as God. Not one. The word 'trinity' isn't in there, either. There are, of course, all sorts of ways to be creative and just make shit up, but the bottom line is that it's all creative inference.

Below is an excerpt of some bible verses somebody used to try and prove that Jesus was God. I got no answers when I refuted them, so that should say something.



Quote:
Originally Posted by machinegod
(F)or that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.


It does not say 'that which is conceived in her is of the FATHER, SON AND HOLY GHOST.' Be that as it may, you've left out at least one of the elements of the trinity in this quotation of yours.

Quote:
Originally Posted by machinegod
...in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost


Once again, if they are all one entity, why are all three mentioned? You can't win, here. Why are all three of these 'entities' mentioned (and, by the way, 'and' is used, which, last time I checked, is indicative of 'in addition to' or 'plus') in this quote, but not the last? If HoGoSeus (Holy Spirit+God+Jesus) really exsists, why is that it is never actually stated so? I.E. Matthew, Mark, Luke or John saying 'They are one in the same! All three are one being! We don't get it, either, but trust us.' What is the official term for all three of these guys being the same bloody damn thing? (And not 'Trinity', cause it ain't in your bible anywhere. Go here and check if you want.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by machinegod
Art thou the Christ, the Son of the Blessed? 62 And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.


In what way does this say 'Jesus is God'? Doesn't it say quite the opposite infact? When I sit at the right hand of my dad, generally I'm on his right side. Does that mean we have morphed into a super Voltron like being? Or are we still seperate? If Jesus had said 'Form Blazing HoGoSeus!' I'd be more apt to believe your claim. Instead, he says he's sitting next to his pops in magical sky land.

Quote:
Originally Posted by machinehead
...that the Father is in me, and I in him.

Not only is this gross, (in him? Did they have sex? Donate blood to eachother? How can you be 'in' something without physically being 'in' it?) it doesn't add up to your magic number. Where is the Holy Spirit in this quote? Again, never mentioned. Have you ever really read the bible?

Quote:
Originally Posted by machinehead
Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?


You emphasized 'I said' in this quote. What does that- or the whole quote, for that matter- have to do with proving your trinity? Maybe you were tired.

Quote:
Originally Posted by machinehead
And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us


I'm glad you mentioned this one. First, who is God talking to? His other god friends? The Greek or Norse pantheons, perhaps? I know, I know, he was talking to Jesus and the H.S. (Never mind Jesus had yet to be born). If I make that concession, the next logical question becomes 'Why the fuck was HoGoSeus talking to himself?' Instead, you guys say 'See! It proves the Trinity!', even though it mentions only God. The 'us' is rather ambiguous, and has puzzled biblical scholars for centuries. Wouldn't he have said 'the man is become as me/ HoGoSeus'?

Quote:
Originally Posted by machinegod
The Lord our God is one Lord

I agree, whole heartedly. Exactly what I've been trying to say. Maybe you do get me after all...

I'm out like the fat kid in dodgeball,

Ty

PS Mods, I tried to post a link to the thread that had all this in it, but I couldn't get it to work. All I have to do is cut and paste the link from the address bar, right? If not, can someone clue me in? Thanks.

Magdlyn

Hold on there TySixtus. Perhaps our new member has not read the 4 canonical gospels yet (much less the whole of Hebrew and Greek scriptures, the Apocrypha, the Nag Hammadi library, the Dead Sea Scrolls, Eusebius, Justin, etc., etc.). He admits to being no scholar.

He may be asking a idle question. Surely we can count him innocent of any huge preconceptions or prejudices until shown otherwise. So in the interests of honey, not vinegar being a good fly catcher--

A few numbers and verses would help our new member look stuff up!


If Jesus is being made to quote Daniel, he got it wrong. Daniel says "one like a son of man," ie: like a human being. It is a phrase being used to denote an attempt at anthropomorphizing a theological concept found in a dream vision. BTW, J does not say, "I am that one like a son of man." He just says we shall see him (whoever he is)--someday!

I guess you are addressing machinehead here, not our new member?

Why the gross physical analogies? Paul was speaking of a spirit being.

I agree with you on this one.

And this sounds Jewish. Where in Tanakh is it, so our new friend can look up the context?

Not_Registered

TySixtus I stated before this was not a discussion about what Jesus said. All your quotes are irrelevant to the topic I brought up. I was just focusing on the reason for Jesus' crucifixion. And CX the so what is that a great number of people don't believe that Jesus ever even claimed to be God, but that he was merely a prophet or just really close to God in a religious sense (like an ardent Christian or somethin). So if what your saying CX is that Jesus claiming to be God had absolutely nothing to do with his death then my point is invalid. But if, as I tend to believe, Jesus' was crucified (maybe along with other reasons) because people believed He was saying that He was God then I believe Jesus would have refuted that statement in order to save his life. For example, say I was an extremely ardent Christian and people mistook some of my statements for me saying I was God and thus they planned to kill me. I would be the first to jump to my defense and say "no, no, no...I am not sayin I am God. I am just really close to God spiritually." But Jesus never did anything of the sort and so in an attempt to question those that say Jesus never claimed to be God I have raised this issue.