Psalm 13:5

Then with all due respect, I think you should learn about God, because it sounds like you don't know Him. It sounds like you have a perception of God in your mind that is very distorted, or one-sided.

Jack the Bodiless

Psalm 13:5:

I would appreciate an answer to my post at the bottom of page 2. Here it is again:
You said that you would "clear up this confusion once and for all", and then posted a lot of stuff that also applies to Moses.

So Moses was satanic, yes?
I think the word you're looking for is "Biblical".

Skeptic Pete

I have been learning about god for 45 years Cindy, from people telling me the same things you do. I wouldn't want to know him if he existed unless he was totally different to the way you describe. Your concept of sin disgusts me.

My views on most everything in my life are very clear, not distorted. As for being one-sided.............when the alternative involves disgusting concepts then I'm proud to be one-sided.

French Prometheus

Psalm 13:5, as was said repeatedly to you, your pick-and-choose quotes won't convince anyone here.

Yeah, let's look at what Jesus said.

"But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me." Luke 19:27 (the Greek word katasphaxate is actually much more violent than "slay")

"Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword." Matthew 10:34

"And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not [himself], neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many [stripes]. But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few [stripes]." Luke 12:47 (here "servants" is a mistranlation, the word douloi means slaves)

As for Jesus' actions, the episode with the fig tree (Matthew 21:18-22) speaks volumes...

Before using the you-quote-out-of-context defense, you may want to take a look at this past thread : Jesus, the epitome of tolerance? I think not...

Yep, I agree. Hitler followed Jesus' teachings therefore he was a Christian.

Quoting Paul's epistles, aren't you? How about good ol' 1 Thessalonians 2 :14-16?

"For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have of the Jews:
Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men:
Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost."

Old-style persecution of the Jews has passed away indeed. Hitler has taken it to a new level of barbarity and, unfortunately, efficiency.

He used not to be so antisemitic :

"I was not in agreement with the sharp anti-Semitic tone [of Karl Lueger's Christian Social movement], but from time to time I read arguments which gave me some food for thought." (Mein Kampf)

But through religious (i.e. Christians) arguments, he became a Jew-killer :

"The anti-Semitism of the new movement [Christian Social movement] was based on religious ideas instead of racial knowledge.
[...]
Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord."

Paul was right. "In Christ", Hitler became a new man.

Yeah, so as a good Christian, you ought to try and adhere to the Gospel :
Why do most Christians violate the 10 Commandments? (O, ye hypocrites)

That also applies to people like you who pick and choose what they like in the Gospels and ignore the rest.
Let me point you, again, to this exciting debate :
Why do most Christians violate the 10 Commandments? (O, ye hypocrites)

Jesus was not peaceful (Matt : 10-34) nor gentle (Luke 19:27) and certainly had no self-control (John 2:13-17 & Matthew 21:18-22).

Psalm 13:5

I'm sorry, but I think some questions are so ridiculous that they don't even warrant a serious reply.

It sounds like you have a huge misunderstanding of the entire Bible, and of God. (as many atheists on this site do). I wouldn't be able to clear that up, at least not in one post. I do want to talk about this perception you, and Pete, and others have. But I think I'll do that on a whole new thread, when I have the time.

The Evil One

Your ability to ignore uncomfortable facts is fascinating. I invite you to find me any example of anyone claiming to be a Christian who has applied the expression "my Lord and Saviour" to anyone other than Jesus.

But, in case you need more proof, here it is:

If you know anyone else who he might have been talking about - someone who is followed by Christians, who is referred to as "Lord and Saviour", who was a man, who had only a few followers, who is renowned for suffering, who is referred to with a capitalised pronoun, who drove a group of Jews out of the Temple, who lived two thousand years ago, and who shed his blood on the Cross - anyone at all who fulfils all these descriptors OTHER than Jesus, I beg you to fill the rest of us in on who Hitler might have been talking about.

This whole Pope thing is a red herring, since the topic is Hitler, but again, I invite you to find any instance of the Pope or any other prominent Catholic referring to Mary as such, even in roundabout ways. Mary is not referred to as "Lord" or "Saviour"; "Queen of Heaven" and "Mother of God" are the most common titles given to her (as well as things like "Splendid Virgin" and so on). I know you don't think well of Catholicism and the prominent role it gives to Mary and saints, but that's no excuse for presenting untruths about what Catholics believe.

Anywya, I suppose that if you don't accept the Pope's claim to be a Christian, it is kind of consistent (if entirely bizarre) that you reject Hitler's...

[edit]um I see Prometheus_fr said pretty much all this already and I missed the post in my haste down the thread.... sorry dude.... but Magus, I think you should reply to at least one of us...[/edit]

French Prometheus

No problem! I don't think saying twice is enough anyway...

Jack the Bodiless

Psalm 13:5:
Why is it "ridiculous" to compare Moses to Hitler, when their actions and motives were so very similar?

Seeking "Lebensraum" for his chosen people: check.

Ordering genocide of entire races: check.

Ordering slaughter of Jews: check.

"Doing the Lord's work": check.
Should I provide the appropriate Biblical verses? They are quite unambiguous!

...So I'm still unable to identify what it is that makes Hitler, but not Moses, "satanic".

Psalm 13:5

Prometheus_fr, any good scholar of the Bible would tell you, God is both love/goodness/grace/mercy AND righteousness/holiness/justice/wrath.

He is both the Lamb and the Lion.

But you seem to have completely misunderstood and entirely twisted the overall nature of God, you think He's the bad guy, and YOUR'E the good guy, and that is based on complete misunderstandings of God and the Bible, as well as some other reasons, imo. I think this is such a typical atheist mentality, and as I said to Jack the bodiless, this is something that I think should go on a whole new thread. Probably not for a couple days, but I do want to post a thread on the misconceptions atheists have, because in my honest view, it is very, very sad.

The Evil One

Well, but that's the problem, see. There are 30,000 Christian denominations (and counting). Each of them claims that they are Christians. Some of them accept that other denominations are Christians, others do not. What you are effectively asking us atheists to do is use the Bible as means to judge whether or not these people who call themselves Christians actually are Christians.

But this is impossible, for three reasons. Firstly, because ALL denominations can point at different bits of the Bible to prove that they are True Christians, and we atheists have no means to discover which bits or which interpretations are the right one for determining who is a Christian and who is not.

Secondly, because if you take everything the Bible says about what a follower of Christ should be, the conclusion would be that only born-again non-judgemental secularist voluntarily-poor celibate pacifist missionaries could possibly be real Christians. There aren't really many of those at all.

Thirdly, because we're not telepathic. So even if we were to agree (for instance) that a Christian is someone who believes in the word-for-word truth of the Apostle's Creed, we can never know whether someone who says they are a Christian really is. Maybe they don't believe in the God they say they believe in. Maybe they do. We can never know because we can't read minds. So when someone says "I'm a Christian", we either have to take them at their word or doubt the claim of EVEREYONE who says that.

Fourthly, because the term "Christian" has been stretched in so many different ways. You can find people on this planet who agree with all the following statements:

"I'm a Christian, but I don't believe in Satan or demons or angels or saints. All that's just fairytales, there's only God and humans."

"I'm a Christian, but I don't believe in the literal existence of God. God is an idea, an idea about how to become better people."

"I'm a Christian, but I don't believe there's a trinity - God is One."

"I'm a Christian, but I don't believe there was ever a historical Jesus on earth - God the Son communicated with the apostles from Heaven, in my opinion."

"I'm a Christian - I follow Jesus, but I don't believe Jesus was God the Son. That's just a heresy that got accepted as Catholic orthodoxy. Jesus was the Messiah, not a god."

"I'm a Christian, and I believe Jesus was God. But I don't believe that him dying redeemed us from sin or anything silly like that. His importance was as an example of how to live a less sinful and more godly life."

"I'm a Christian, and I believe anyone outside my denomination - and probably even a few inside it - will burn in hell forever."

"I'm a Christian, and I believe God will take me to Heaven, and he'll take other good people to heaven as well, regardless of what religion they are. And I don't believe in Hell, either. God wouldn't burn anyone in Hell."

See what I mean about "stretched"? Given all these interpretations of what it means to be a "Christian", how the merry blazes are we atheists supposed ot choose which is right? We can't. It's not possible. And so I suspect that most atheists do what I do: we look at the original Christianity - the scatter of church communities around the eastern Med in the late 1st/early 2nd centuries - and we accept as valid any claim of "Christianity" that has historical roots in that original movement, or is based on the scriptural materials of that movement. That's all we can do. And even that is tricky and leaves grey areas (e.g. the Mormons).

What we can't do is wordlessly accept the definition of Christians who say that "Christian" means "someone who sincerely believes what I believe". Because firstly it requires telepathy and secondly it would make the word mean something different to everyone who said it.