Nectaris

That's not as good a selling point, now is it? God X is only going to punish me for three years for not worshipping him, God Y will punish me for eternity for not worshiping him, I'll worship God Y. After all I only get three years if I'm wrong--a polytheistic PW.

Oddly enough, both worshiping and worshipping are considered correct spellings.

Dave

Biff the unclean

They must have liked it because they took it too and called it Purgatory

judge

The word usually translated as hell is the Aramaic word ghenna.
The word ghenna (meaning the valley outside jerusalem) occurs only in the Aramaic targum (translation) of Isaiah...."where the worm does not die".
This is Isaiah chapter 66. If you read an english version you will see the reference to "where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die" The Aramaic targum refers to "ghenna" here as well.

If we look to the Aramaic version of lukes gospel we see this is not the same place as sheol.

See Luke 12:5 in Aramaic where Jesus warns of ghenna and see also Luke 16:23 where the rich man is in sheol.

Sheol was the abode of the dead, whilst awaiting resurrection and judgement.
Ghenna is not the same place (or event) .

Amlodhi

Hi judge,

The term Gehenna is indeed thought to derive from גי הנם (gai Hinnom) or, as it is more usually referred to גיא בן־הנם (gaia ben-Hinnom).

(gai Hinnom) - valley of Hinnom

(gaia ben-Hinnom) - valley of the son of Hinnom

This term occurs in the Hebrew Masoretic text at:

Josh. 15:8 - 18:16
II Kg. 23:10
II Chr. 28:3 - 33:6
Neh. 11:30
Jer. 7:31 - 7:32 - 19:2 - 19:6 - 32:35

But I don't see the term (in either form) connected to Isaiah chapter 66. Can you reproduce the Aramaic targum portion that applies this term here?

Thanks,

Amlodhi

judge

Hi Amlodhi!
I was relying on an article by Craig A. Evans, professor of biblical studies at Trinity Western University in British Columbia, Canada.

He writes...." when Jesus alludes to Scriptures in the Gospels, he usually does so in a manner that agrees with the Aramaic Targum, not the Greek or Hebrew versions. Some examples: In Mark 9:42-50, Jesus warns of judgment by speaking of Gehenna and alluding to Isaiah 66:24, "where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched." The word Gehenna does not appear in the Hebrew or Greek, but only in the Aramaic"

The entire article used to be avaliable for free but now you need to pay for it. :boohoo:

I have actually misrepresented him a little though I see now . He is only saying that ghenna only appears in the Aramaic version of isaiah, not that it does not appear elsewhere at all.

In fact, on re-reading it, I am not absolutely sure he is saying it appears in Isaiah, although I think he is.
What do you think?

Amlodhi

From what little I have been able to dig up so far, I get the definite impression that the term is used in some capacity in Is. 66:24.

I do know that the Targum (which means "translation") often contains some free-form "rabbincal" exegesis in addition to the "translation".

Thus I would be interested to find out in just what capacity the term "gehenna" is used in this verse, what grammatical form it is in, and when this particular targum was written.

Thanks for the information,

Amlodhi

judge

Hi again Amlodhi!

Another essay by Craig A. Evans has the following to say

Jesus' saying on Gehenna (Mark 9:47-48), where he quotes part of Isa 66:24, again reflects targumic diction. The Hebrew and the Septuagint say nothing about Gehenna, but the targum has: " . . . will not die and their fire shall not be quenched, and the wicked shall be judged in Gehenna. . . ."

Atticus_Finch

Its not often that the people on this board totally miss something. This appears to be one of those times. There is at least one direct reference to judgment, afterlife and eternal condemnation in the OT. See Daniel 12:2. While it does not specifically say "hell" I was surprised that no one raised it.

Regards,

Finch

Toto

Daniel 12

The End Times

1 "At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people-everyone whose name is found written in the book-will be delivered. 2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.

Sorry, but I don't see a reference to Hell here as we understand it - a place where a soul goes directly after death for eternal torment.

Amaleq13

My understanding of this passage is that it refers to a general resurrection at The End where everybody is brought back to eternal life on earth (specifically Israel according to Ezekiel) and the righteous will eternally look down upon the unrighteous with contempt.

Not quite the same but I can see where a belief like that could easily transition to a Zoroastrian sort.