Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Viti · 08-05-2004, 02:50 PM

Sounds like mass email glurge rather than an actual argument.

And why did he switch to the third person at the end of his sickening little story?

Dhaeron · 08-05-2004, 02:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rev. Timothy G. Muse

I've come to the understanding that most people do not understand the purpose of God's law. For many years, I did not understand it, but an experience with my son sheds great light on the subject.

When my son was first learning to tie his shoe, he called to me and said "Daddy, will you tie my shoe?" But as I went to help him, he pulled back and said "I can tie it myself". Rather than arguing with him, I said to him 'Go ahead, tie your shoe." (I knew he couldn't, but wanted him to come to this understanding, that he might realize his inability and look to me to help him where he could not do it himself.) After about five minutes and nine tries, he finally gave up, admitted his own inability to do what was commanded, looked up to his father and said "Daddy, will you tie my shoe for me?"

This is a good picture of how God uses the law. Many come to the Ten Commandments as if God gave his standard of righteousness that we might fulfill them and show him how "righteous" we are. But the truth is, no matter how hard we try, we always fall short. God has given the Ten Commandments to show us that we cannot do them, that we might raise our heads and look to him ... that he might provide a righteousness for us, that we cannot accomplish or provide for ourselves. That's what Paul says in Galatians 3:24 "So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith."

I'll agree with you comepletely on this.
But i'll only agree if you can prove the assumptions necessary for this analogy.
a) There is a god.
b) It is the GOD of the bible
c) The ten commandmends were given to us by HIM, and have neither been invented nor altered by man.
d) Paul's statement does correctly represent the will of GOD

Taffer · 08-05-2004, 03:18 PM

I never understood how to tie a shoelace as a kid. Try as they might, my parents couldn't teach me that horrible knot, no matter how many "rabbit goes around the tree three times and down the hole" rhymes they had me recite; I remember spending entire recesses trying to twist my shoelaces into a semblance of a knot before I found that there wasn't any time left to play outside.

When the pressure came to be too much (Hey, this is a big thing for a kid!), I sat down with a pair of shoes, figured out a knot of my own that was completely different from the one people had been trying to teach me, one that worked just as well. And I still use it to this day. Hurrah for me.

PS: The analogy is kind of flawed because God is omnipotent and omniscient, unlike a human parent. God should always be able to figure out a way to teach us things perfectly, instantly and without infringing on free will, because there is nothing he can't do, catch my drift?

Rhaedas · 08-05-2004, 03:29 PM

Cut to the chase. Why didn't god just make the world barefoot friendly?

Space Chef · 08-05-2004, 03:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Taffer

I never understood how to tie a shoelace as a kid. Try as they might, my parents couldn't teach me that horrible knot, no matter how many "rabbit goes around the tree three times and down the hole" rhymes they had me recite; I remember spending entire recesses trying to twist my shoelaces into a semblance of a knot before I found that there wasn't any time left to play outside.

When the pressure came to be too much (Hey, this is a big thing for a kid!), I sat down with a pair of shoes, figured out a knot of my own that was completely different from the one people had been trying to teach me, one that worked just as well. And I still use it to this day. Hurrah for me.

:notworthy

As for the OP, this can also be applied to Islam, Hinduism or whatever religion you choose. Either Hinduism or Buddhism works best with the analogy, IMO. Because with the whole reincarnation thing, we have a lot of chances. Not just one and then it's the barbecue, as in Christianity and Islam. Some schools of Buddhism and Hinduism have hells, but they're only temporary. But, the reincarnation concept works best.

Plus, with Buddhism, the Buddha wouldn't be pleased with people being reincarnated. He'd be sad and shouting "I was stuck too! I didn't make the rules, they just are! But I know how you can escape it!" Much nicer than Yahweh or Allah, as he'd actually give a damn.

Howard · 08-05-2004, 03:58 PM

When I was learning to tie my shoes the devil appeared and showed me how to tie people’s shoelaces together while they weren’t looking, Then they would get up and fall over and I would howl with laughter.

(I have to admit, this is the best Argument from Shoelaces I've ever seen.)

openeyes · 08-05-2004, 04:10 PM

Quote:

When my son was first learning to tie his shoe, he called to me and said "Daddy, will you tie my shoe?" But as I went to help him, he pulled back and said "I can tie it myself". Rather than arguing with him, I said to him 'Go ahead, tie your shoe." (I knew he couldn't, but wanted him to come to this understanding, that he might realize his inability and look to me to help him where he could not do it himself.) After about five minutes and nine tries, he finally gave up, admitted his own inability to do what was commanded, looked up to his father and said "Daddy, will you tie my shoe for me?"

With parents like this, no wonder there are mixed up kids.

The kid tries to show initiative and gain some independence, but instead of being rewarded for it, he's left to flounder and almost shamed into admitting his lack of skill. He must meekly ask for help. ("Ha, Ha, could have told you you'd fail, but I wanted you to discover that for yourself and have to come to mighty me for assistance!")

So what has this child learned? That it's better to remain infantile and dependent? Why didn't daddy offer to gently guide his hands after a few tries and then let him try the second shoe on his own? Might he have learned at the end of five minutes to tie his own shoes? Isn't that what we want? (Or maybe not if you're "God")

Aquarius · 08-05-2004, 04:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BeansRBad

It was a bad analogy anyway unless the good Reverend made some kind of rule or law that said, "My son must tie his shoe." I hope the good Reverend acted as a good dad should and threatened to throw his son in a barbeque pit for failing to tie his shoe.

:rolling: :rolling: :notworthy Man... thanks for making me spit Diet Sprite all over my keyboard!!

Aqua

Infidelettante · 08-05-2004, 05:00 PM

Why must Theists use analogy to explain their God to us as if anything is analogous to God. You and your son are the same thing. There is only time between the two of you. Someday you look up and he will be taller and stronger and perhaps he will tie your laces and hold your hand to steady you as you walk.

How are you like God? And how is your son like every human being who has ever asked your God for help and had no answer. How are you like a God who would condemned his own creation for all eternity because it can not learn to tie its shoes.

JT

sakrilege · 08-05-2004, 05:03 PM

To me, the fact that any analogy is needed in order to understand god's message is an indication that that message is not really inspired. If the message isn't clear enough on it's own and the result of not understanding the message is eternal damnation then god is simply a sadist.

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08-05-2004, 02:50 PM	#11
Viti Contributor Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Down South Posts: 12,879	Sounds like mass email glurge rather than an actual argument. And why did he switch to the third person at the end of his sickening little story?

08-05-2004, 03:18 PM	#13
Taffer Regular Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Bern, Switzerland Posts: 348	I never understood how to tie a shoelace as a kid. Try as they might, my parents couldn't teach me that horrible knot, no matter how many "rabbit goes around the tree three times and down the hole" rhymes they had me recite; I remember spending entire recesses trying to twist my shoelaces into a semblance of a knot before I found that there wasn't any time left to play outside. When the pressure came to be too much (Hey, this is a big thing for a kid!), I sat down with a pair of shoes, figured out a knot of my own that was completely different from the one people had been trying to teach me, one that worked just as well. And I still use it to this day. Hurrah for me. PS: The analogy is kind of flawed because God is omnipotent and omniscient, unlike a human parent. God should always be able to figure out a way to teach us things perfectly, instantly and without infringing on free will, because there is nothing he can't do, catch my drift?

08-05-2004, 03:29 PM	#14
Rhaedas Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: USA Posts: 3,440	Cut to the chase. Why didn't god just make the world barefoot friendly?

08-05-2004, 03:58 PM	#16
Howard Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Orlando, Fl Posts: 5,864	When I was learning to tie my shoes the devil appeared and showed me how to tie people’s shoelaces together while they weren’t looking, Then they would get up and fall over and I would howl with laughter. (I have to admit, this is the best Argument from Shoelaces I've ever seen.)

08-05-2004, 05:00 PM	#19
Infidelettante Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: The Deep South Posts: 889	Why must Theists use analogy to explain their God to us as if anything is analogous to God. You and your son are the same thing. There is only time between the two of you. Someday you look up and he will be taller and stronger and perhaps he will tie your laces and hold your hand to steady you as you walk. How are you like God? And how is your son like every human being who has ever asked your God for help and had no answer. How are you like a God who would condemned his own creation for all eternity because it can not learn to tie its shoes. JT

08-05-2004, 05:03 PM	#20
sakrilege Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Cleveland, OH, USA Folding@Home Godless Team Posts: 6,211	To me, the fact that any analogy is needed in order to understand god's message is an indication that that message is not really inspired. If the message isn't clear enough on it's own and the result of not understanding the message is eternal damnation then god is simply a sadist.

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