capnkirk

Enfield,

First, let me say that I refuse to argue with theists. I refuse because I understand that belief structures that are not based on logic are not vulnerable to logical deconstruction. Even friendly discussions are often better described as polite arguments. My experience agrees with LadyShea's post. The best one can hope for in a typical exchange is to create doubt that, while unacknowledged, may still grow and fester long after the two of you have parted. Though this essentially robs you of any immediate satisfaction derived from receiving his capitulation, it just isn't realistic to expect open surrender.

Religious beliefs are always complex constructs so they are not deconstructed by virtue of one argument.

__________________
Enterprise...OUT.

Starboy

There beliefs are already so grotesquely out of sync with reality that niggling little difficulties in the bible are a mere trifle. I will say that arguing with religious people is futile. As much as they like to think that they believe as they do for rational reasons, it is and remains an emotional choice having nothing to do with reason. There is no point in trying to convince them of anything in regards their religion using reason, you must use emotion. Threaten them with a more powerful mojo, or cast a spell on them or present something that appeals to their superstitious mind.

Starboy

sharon45

For every one deconversion, there could probably be at least a hundred conversions. Christians have far too much at stake to give up anywhere easily and not that much to look forward to if they did deconvert. I don't expect to beat any christian, afterall, it's their game, they will continually change the rules and run away home with the ball.

Yahzi

This isn't quite true. People who want to stop being victims of irrationality can eventually reason their way out of it.

But yes, people who don't want to listen to reason can't be forced to.

Lunawalk

Hi Enfield,I think it seems impossibe because they see you as destroying their faith. and will defend it strongly. For example
I had an simular debate with an relative. We were talking about the number of animals on noah's ark. He did not see an contradiction between both accounts. He said both were true. His argument was that two of every kind of animal did not mean one pair. The command to bring food incated more animals. Thus in the next chapter when it was seven pairs of clean and one pair of unclean. they were still in twos. I guess I am accuraty representing his argument. We debated this one contradiction for some time. Eventually I gave up and asked another question about creation. About the firmament seperationing the waters with one body above and the other below. At first he doubted that I was reading it correctly than asked how did I know that the earth was like the bible said it was. Meaning god can do anything.I could not believe what I was hearing. I brought up more problems with the bible but he did not have an answer. He said there must be an solution to these "apparent" contradictions but I would have to look for it. I am sure are explanation to these contradictions but you have to see if it makes sense. Anyway that debate was pointless and draining. Eventually he was saying that I need faith to believe.

So next time I will try to avoid having an debate because they have different ways of loooking at the world. Their beliefs are deeply held and pointing out contradictions makes no diffrence.

Badfish

That is a very good post, I am guilty of not conceding sometimes and grasping at straws, in an attempt to contend my faith. But it does go both ways. Online apologetics is like that.

Badfish

How can a Christian change the rules? A true Christian is bound by dogma and both parties have equal access to knowledge and the bible. I am a Christian and an apologist somewhat and I don't always win a debate, in fact I almost always lose, but more importantly I try to be honest in debates, if I can use a point to leverage a debate I will use it, but I will not change any rules to make a point.

True Christians should contend and not vehemently debate with the intent of "winning" thats not what its supposed to be about.

Yeah we feel like we have the Spirit of God and want to do what we can to try to help people see the truth in what we believe or experience, but bringing someone to God isn't about winning, its about helping someone to examine the validity of of what we believe, and its done out of love for fellow man, not about proving we are right.

Outside of evangelical Christianity, what have we to gain?

Badfish

You can't beat them. Even if you feel like you beat them, they won't see it that way. There is no magic trump card that will allow you to disprove their faith or God.

rick87

They dont change their beliefs because you attempt to disprove God, just as you would not change your beleifs if someone were to pick at holes in your argument.

You cannot disprove faith, because faith is the belief of something not based on proof. God does not provide evidence of his existance because he wants people to have faith.

Starboy

There are a lot of Christians out there that do not understand this.

Starboy