Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Queen of Swords · 10-19-2003, 09:32 PM

Is there an advantage to having copper in the oxygen-carrying pigment of blood, rather than iron? If so, could anyone tell me what that advantage is?

Thanks!

Doubting Didymus · 10-19-2003, 09:49 PM

Are you talking about hemoglobin? You mean to substitute the central iron molecule for a copper one? Could you even do that?

Calzaer · 10-19-2003, 11:24 PM

Horseshoe crabs have copper-based blood, so yeah, you can do that. Dunno for sure what difference it makes, though.

Dean Anderson · 10-20-2003, 01:15 AM

Surely, it would make you:

Stronger
Able to suppress your emotions
Able to 'Mind-Meld' people
Able to do a 'Nerve Pinch'

At least - that's what it did for Mr Spock...

Queen of Swords · 10-20-2003, 01:27 AM

Originally posted by Pervy Hobbit Fancier
At least - that's what it did for Mr Spock...

Yes, that was partly what I had in mind. Would humans with Cu-based hemoglobin have any inherent advantage over humans with Fe-based hemoglobin (assuming that the former is even faintly possible)?

Another question. Why is it that whenever I read about the smell of blood (in novels), it's "coppery" (I suppose "irony" might be confusing) ? Does anyone know what gives blood its coppery odor?

lpetrich · 10-20-2003, 04:04 AM

First, hemoglobin vs. hemocyanin will likely make little difference. That's because the metal ions are what bind the oxygen (one oxygen molecule for iron; not sure about copper).

And you'd need a whole lot of other physiological changes to get Spockian performance. Changing the blood oxygen carrier alone won't do it; the most you'd get is being able to hold your breath longer, from your blood being able to store more oxygen.

And you'd also be advised to change the myoglobin to something improved; myoglobin does what hemoglobin does, but in the muscles. It's worth noting that whales have 2 to 8 times as much myoglobin per unit of muscle as land mammals; this makes whale meat much darker than (say) beef -- and this enables whales to hold their breath for as long as several minutes.

Yes, the red in red meat is myoglobin.

Gurdur · 10-20-2003, 04:44 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Doubting Didymus

Are you talking about hemoglobin? You mean to substitute the central iron molecule for a copper one? Could you even do that?

It's worthwhile looking at the very apparent similarities between hemoglobin and chlorophyll:

Heme:
http://www.scifun.org/chemweek/chel&chlor/heme.gif

Chlorophyll A:
http://www.scifun.org/chemweek/chel&chlor/chlrphyl.gif

Note the central N-x ring.

Horseshoe crabs have a Cu atom in the middle, rather than iron or magnesium.

According to this, haemocyanin (hemocyanin, the Cu-based varient) has less capacity at binding oxygen than haemoglobin (hemoglobin).

10-19-2003, 09:32 PM	#1
Queen of Swords Contributor Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Canada. Finally. Posts: 10,155	Question about blood Is there an advantage to having copper in the oxygen-carrying pigment of blood, rather than iron? If so, could anyone tell me what that advantage is? Thanks!

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10-19-2003, 09:49 PM	#2
Doubting Didymus Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: East Coast. Australia. Posts: 5,455	Are you talking about hemoglobin? You mean to substitute the central iron molecule for a copper one? Could you even do that?

10-19-2003, 11:24 PM	#3
Calzaer Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Ohio Posts: 2,762	Horseshoe crabs have copper-based blood, so yeah, you can do that. Dunno for sure what difference it makes, though.

10-20-2003, 01:15 AM	#4
Dean Anderson Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Brighton, England Posts: 6,947	Surely, it would make you: Stronger Able to suppress your emotions Able to 'Mind-Meld' people Able to do a 'Nerve Pinch' At least - that's what it did for Mr Spock...

10-20-2003, 01:27 AM	#5
Queen of Swords Contributor Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Canada. Finally. Posts: 10,155	Originally posted by Pervy Hobbit Fancier At least - that's what it did for Mr Spock... Yes, that was partly what I had in mind. Would humans with Cu-based hemoglobin have any inherent advantage over humans with Fe-based hemoglobin (assuming that the former is even faintly possible)? Another question. Why is it that whenever I read about the smell of blood (in novels), it's "coppery" (I suppose "irony" might be confusing) ? Does anyone know what gives blood its coppery odor?

10-20-2003, 04:04 AM	#6
lpetrich Contributor Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Lebanon, OR, USA Posts: 16,829	First, hemoglobin vs. hemocyanin will likely make little difference. That's because the metal ions are what bind the oxygen (one oxygen molecule for iron; not sure about copper). And you'd need a whole lot of other physiological changes to get Spockian performance. Changing the blood oxygen carrier alone won't do it; the most you'd get is being able to hold your breath longer, from your blood being able to store more oxygen. And you'd also be advised to change the myoglobin to something improved; myoglobin does what hemoglobin does, but in the muscles. It's worth noting that whales have 2 to 8 times as much myoglobin per unit of muscle as land mammals; this makes whale meat much darker than (say) beef -- and this enables whales to hold their breath for as long as several minutes. Yes, the red in red meat is myoglobin.

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