FRDB Archives

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.


Go Back   FRDB Archives > Archives > Religion (Closed) > Biblical Criticism & History
Welcome, Peter Kirby.
You last visited: Today at 03:12 PM

 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 10-09-2007, 10:02 PM   #771
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: In the dark places of the world
Posts: 8,093
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by spin View Post
Your problem is that you are trying to read your desires into a term that doesn't help you. "El-Shaddai" is male and Shaddai doesn't seem to have anything to do with breasts. Your position seems like wild conjecture to me. If it was someone's idea before you, blame them and beat a quick exit.


spin
AFAIK, shaddai is Hebrew for "strong". It is the same in Arabic, where they expand the common Semitic trilateral root sh-d-d to shadiid, meaning strong.

Sometimes you have a word in Arabic that has a double stress; for example, Saddam, where the letter "d" is stressed hard and the speaker lingers over the sound for a split second longer. In such circumstances, there is a diacritical mark over that letter. The name of the diacritical mark is "shadda", meaning "strong" or "strengthen", as an indicator to the reader of how to pronounce it.

Is the "breast" connection established, or speculative? Is it unique to Hebrew?
Sauron is offline  
Old 10-09-2007, 10:28 PM   #772
Contributor
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: nowhere
Posts: 15,747
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sauron View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by spin View Post
Your problem is that you are trying to read your desires into a term that doesn't help you. "El-Shaddai" is male and Shaddai doesn't seem to have anything to do with breasts. Your position seems like wild conjecture to me. If it was someone's idea before you, blame them and beat a quick exit.
AFAIK, shaddai is Hebrew for "strong".
I think that's just a translational fudge. The LXX tends to avoid translating it at all, suggesting it was too obscure, and the Vulgate has omnipotens, but where that came from I don't know. It's where we get out "almighty" from.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sauron View Post
It is the same in Arabic, where they expand the common Semitic trilateral root sh-d-d to shadiid, meaning strong.
That ($DD) seems to be the root for the Hebrew verb as well that I gave as "deal violently with, devastate".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sauron View Post
Sometimes you have a word in Arabic that has a double stress; for example, Saddam, where the letter "d" is stressed hard and the speaker lingers over the sound for a split second longer. In such circumstances, there is a diacritical mark over that letter. The name of the diacritical mark is "shadda", meaning "strong" or "strengthen", as an indicator to the reader of how to pronounce it.
There is actually a lot better prospects for an etymology for Shaddai ($DY) than Magdlyn's suggestion of "breast" ($D).

I'm not up with the relationship between modern Arabic and ancient Hebrew, but I'd guess that the "d" you're referring to in Saddam, being the strong one and not the normal "d", may not have any relation with the Hebrew DALET.

The usual words for "strong" in Hebrew are (Z ("az") and XZQ ("chazaq").

Magdlyn mentioned a source he looked at which finds "mountain" behind $DYYN found in the Deir Alla inscription and that certainly is possible.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sauron View Post
Is the "breast" connection established, or speculative? Is it unique to Hebrew?
It certainly seems speculative to me.


spin
spin is offline  
Old 10-09-2007, 10:41 PM   #773
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: In the dark places of the world
Posts: 8,093
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by spin View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sauron View Post
AFAIK, shaddai is Hebrew for "strong".
I think that's just a translational fudge. The LXX tends to avoid translating it at all, suggesting it was too obscure, and the Vulgate has omnipotens, but where that came from I don't know. It's where we get out "almighty" from.


That ($DD) seems to be the root for the Hebrew verb as well that I gave as "deal violently with, devastate".
Yep, got the 'uzza reference; it's the root word for the Jewish name "Oz", by the way. One of the Ninety-Nine Names of God in Islam is "Al-Uzza".

Quote:
There is actually a lot better prospects for an etymology for Shaddai ($DY) than Magdlyn's suggestion of "breast" ($D).

I'm not up with the relationship between modern Arabic and ancient Hebrew, but I'd guess that the "d" you're referring to in Saddam, being the strong one and not the normal "d", may not have any relation with the Hebrew DALET.
It's not a different letter; it's the same letter, being emphasized and stressed.

Shaddah (stress) isn't connected with any particular letter. Other examples:

1. the name Omar Khayyam, the shaddah is on the letter 'y'. Khayyaam is a particular form of the root kh-y-m, and indicates a profession; in this case, tent-maker;

2. the city name Amman, capital of Jordan, the shaddah is on the 'm'.

3. the name Haddad, is from the root h-d-d, meaning 'iron', and the particular form that this name takes indicates a profession; in other words, someone who works with iron, or a blacksmith.

So shaddah is a grammar feature, not connected to any particular letter. It can even be placed on a vowel. All genitives of nationality (American, Israeli, Iraqi - amrikiiyy, isra'iilii, 'iraaqii) have a shadda on the final 'yaa.
Sauron is offline  
Old 10-09-2007, 11:32 PM   #774
Contributor
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: nowhere
Posts: 15,747
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sauron View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by spin View Post
I'm not up with the relationship between modern Arabic and ancient Hebrew, but I'd guess that the "d" you're referring to in Saddam, being the strong one and not the normal "d", may not have any relation with the Hebrew DALET.
It's not a different letter; it's the same letter, being emphasized and stressed.
Hang on there. I know that there are actually two different letters in Arabic, a normal "d" and an emphatic "d" -- I could never pronounce the latter. Are you saying that the "d" in "Saddam" is emphasized, but not emphatic? - just so as we understand each other.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sauron View Post
Shaddah (stress) isn't connected with any particular letter. Other examples:

1. the name Omar Khayyam, the shaddah is on the letter 'y'. Khayyaam is a particular form of the root kh-y-m, and indicates a profession; in this case, tent-maker;

2. the city name Amman, capital of Jordan, the shaddah is on the 'm'.

3. the name Haddad, is from the root h-d-d, meaning 'iron', and the particular form that this name takes indicates a profession; in other words, someone who works with iron, or a blacksmith.

So shaddah is a grammar feature, not connected to any particular letter. It can even be placed on a vowel. All genitives of nationality (American, Israeli, Iraqi - amrikiiyy, isra'iilii, 'iraaqii) have a shadda on the final 'yaa.
It seems to me like a dagesh in Hebrew, a symbol that indicates a doubled consonant.


spin
spin is offline  
Old 10-10-2007, 04:06 AM   #775
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Western Sweden
Posts: 3,684
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by spin View Post
I know that there are actually two different letters in Arabic, a normal "d" and an emphatic "d" -- I could never pronounce the latter. Are you saying that the "d" in "Saddam" is emphasized, but not emphatic? - just so as we understand each other.
Saddām صدام has an emphatic S but an "ordinary" d. The shadda, like vowels, is rarely printed, except in children's books and in the Qur'an.
Quote:
It seems to me like a dagesh in Hebrew, a symbol that indicates a doubled consonant.
Exactly.
Lugubert is offline  
Old 10-10-2007, 04:51 AM   #776
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Brighton, England
Posts: 6,947
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by afdave View Post
I'm spending the day in E/C ... probably will tomorrow also. Thanks Dean for the work you expended with the divisions of the Pentateuch. I will read it thoroughly and comment at length ... probably Wednesday morning.
It's now Wednesday morning, and Dave is online.

I wait with bated breath...
Dean Anderson is offline  
Old 10-10-2007, 05:14 AM   #777
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: .
Posts: 1,014
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesABrown View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dean Anderson View Post
It is a nice window into the gradual development from the Hebrew belief in Yahweh as their local tribal god to the eventual Monotheism of later Judaism.
Great catch. The evolution of polytheism to monotheism has occurred many times in human history. I see the evolution as inevitable. It's the old, "My god can beat up your god" argument taken to its logical extreme.
I think you can even see that "evolution" occuring in the Roman pantheon with Jupiter/Jove getting the designation Jupiter OPTIMUS MAXIMUS later in his "career",perhaps if Christianity had not taken over as the official religion of the Empire eventually Jupiter would have becoem the "One True God" with the rest of the pantheon being relegated to demigod/sainthood status.
Lucretius is offline  
Old 10-10-2007, 05:23 AM   #778
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Brighton, England
Posts: 6,947
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucretius View Post
I think you can even see that "evolution" occuring in the Roman pantheon with Jupiter/Jove getting the designation Jupiter OPTIMUS MAXIMUS later in his "career"
Was it at that point in his career that he defeated the Decepticons?
Dean Anderson is offline  
Old 10-10-2007, 06:00 AM   #779
Banned
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Bloomington, MN
Posts: 2,209
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dean Anderson View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by afdave View Post
I'm spending the day in E/C ... probably will tomorrow also. Thanks Dean for the work you expended with the divisions of the Pentateuch. I will read it thoroughly and comment at length ... probably Wednesday morning.
It's now Wednesday morning, and Dave is online.

I wait with bated breath...
He says he's coming, and he'll probably do precisely what he said he would: comment at length. Based on his shenanigans in E/C, for which he forsook this thread, don't expect anything more than just that: lengthy comments.
Silent Dave is offline  
Old 10-10-2007, 06:21 AM   #780
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Missouri
Posts: 2,375
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dean Anderson View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by afdave View Post
I'm spending the day in E/C ... probably will tomorrow also. Thanks Dean for the work you expended with the divisions of the Pentateuch. I will read it thoroughly and comment at length ... probably Wednesday morning.
It's now Wednesday morning, and Dave is online.

I wait with bated breath...
I'm reading your blog right now. (I see you copied my Wordpress theme ... nice, isn't it? ... where is the "About Me" page? ... I'd like to read your story)
Dave Hawkins is offline  
 

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 09:19 PM.

Top

This custom BB emulates vBulletin® Version 3.8.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.