Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Toto · 10-07-2007, 12:39 PM

This topic is too current for BCH, and not especially connected to Biblical criticism or history (which in the forum, extends throught the middle ages.) I will move it to GRD.

Toto · 10-07-2007, 12:42 PM

John Loftus - you need to read more carefully. Price is talking about Orthodox Jews living in farms next to the Amish if they are to maintain their separate character. The Evangelicals are already too involved with popular culture to pull back.

Magdlyn · 10-07-2007, 12:43 PM

Quote:

The OP was written by Bob Price and sent to me by Ed Babinski. I don't know the source.

Can you at least quote it like this?

[ quote = Robert Price ] text [/ quote ]

(without the spaces)

Otherwise it appears like your own words.

My in-laws are fundies. They had 5 kids and have about 35 grandkids and 8 great grand kids, so far.

There are quite a few divorcees, "illegitimate" children, unmarried couples "living in sin" and several GLBTs scattered amongst the offspring and their partners. A few of them have gone or are going to college and exposed to all kinds of "worldy" ideas! It's great. So, yes, there is hope.

BTW, the Amish are not isolated nor are they all farmers. Their settlements are in amongst thickly settled areas, cheek by jowl with mainstream Americans. They have commerce with them. They hire them as "drivers" when speed is needed. They ride on trains, buses and airplanes.

The same with orthodox Jews, to which the article refers. They often live in crowded cities, have commerce with and hire mainstreamers, use public transport, etc.

Both communities tolerate and show respect for mainstreamers, for the most part.

Unlike fundies, the Amish don't vote, so can't influence political decisions (ie: reproductive rights, right to marry, teaching creationism in public schools) in this country.

GenesisNemesis · 10-07-2007, 01:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sarai

Apparently quite a few Evangelical Christian Churches are using the outrageously popular video game, Halo, as a means of luring young "unsaved" men into their fold. The practice is being criticized because of the extremely violent nature of the game. In addition, there's a religious subtext to the game itself in that the "enemy" is a religious group called "The Covenant", which seeks the destruction of the earth as a means to their ascension to "heaven".

I just thought this was pretty timely and might be of interest!

Sarai

The stupidity of the believers amazes me every day. Don't they know Halo is about killing believers? What do they do, get Master Chief to die each time?

EthnAlln · 10-07-2007, 03:09 PM

The movement will bifurcate, and a small remnant of True Believers will continue with the old repressive, intolerant puritanism. It won't die out quickly, but it will shrink in numbers, like the Shakers (who carried chastity to the ultimate extreme, like the Manichaeans), and perhaps go out like a flickering candle, eventually.

The compromises we are now seeing are a tiny reflection of what the Enlightenment did to the old mainstream churches. They made Christians ashamed of the more ferocious aspects of their doctrine, so that soon Christians were themselves opposing slavery, despite having no doctrinal reason to do so. The same thing is now happening with homosexuality, as the view that homosexuality is a choice becomes increasingly difficult to defend.

Evangelicals are just as subject to social pressure and the Zeitgeist as anyone else. Exhibit A: "Christian rock music."

Another important question: How long before we get Shiite rock music?

Clivedurdle · 10-10-2007, 09:08 AM

I strongly recommend we persuade evangelicals that the only true path is to become hermits and live on styli, probably in a nuclear test site in Nevada.

Ray Moscow · 10-10-2007, 09:14 AM

One problem with the poll question: the Amish are not forced to live in isolated communities -- they choose to do that.

John W. Loftus · 10-10-2007, 09:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ray Moscow

One problem with the poll question: the Amish are not forced to live in isolated communities -- they choose to do that.

Well, I mean "forced" in the sense that they will feel the need to live in isolated communities.

TomboyMom · 10-10-2007, 09:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ck1

To answer the poll question - I think it is clear that at least a subset of Evangelical Christians already live in Amish-like isolation in which they have minimal meaningful contact with the larger society.

Home schooling ensures that children of these people are only exposed to the Evangelical/Fundamentalist viewpoint, and group recreational activities for those children are also church/religion based ("Jesus Camp"). Bible colleges abound, and those who go to secular universities can find comfort in Campus Crusade for Christ and other such organizations, while avoiding courses that would challenge their core beliefs.

Many adult Evangelicals further isolate themselves - they specifically seek out "Christian" businesses. And even in the arts there is segregation-by-choice - think Christian rock and artists like Thomas Kinkaid (never heard of him until a YEC on this board mentioned him as a favorite.)

Add - There is, however, a big difference between the Amish and Fundies. The Amish seek to preserve their beliefs and way of life by isolating themselves. And the rest of us view them as a harmless and interesting group. The Fundies, however, are not content to be left alone - they are active proselytizers who want to convert the rest of us.

It's true. They won't watch FOX news--too secular. The only TV they watch is TBN. They can get every kind of recreation and entertainment, even wrestling (Google Christian Wrestling) from purely Christian sources. They have created a mini-society inside the U.S. Only it's not tiny, like the Amish. It's huge.

Vampyroteuthis · 10-10-2007, 09:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

The fate of Evangelical Christianity IMO is in the hands
of science and technology, particularly all the new
technologies that are rapidly becoming available to
archaeology, including C14 dating and the reading
of scrolls without their opening.

The christian religion was foisted upon the Roman
Empire by its mafia boss Constantine in the year 325 CE,

The religion rose itself to supremacy in the empire
within the space of 40 years, by persecution and
destruction, buring and intolerance --- and imperial
support.

It is my considered and researched opinion that the
very existence of christianity prior to Constantine
needs to be perceived
LOGICALLY as an unexamined postulate.

A recent thesis lists
all the archaeological evidence
in the fields of epigraphy and papyri which our
modern "christian scholarship" is presently discussing
as being before Nicaea.

My review covers over 60 citations.
But not one of them is unambiguous!

Consequently, it will be the archaeologists who, in my opinion,
will determine the ultimate fate of all forms of christianity.

Noone in this discussion group, or any other, over the
course of my research has put forward a citation by
which it can be established that the "christians" of the
Constantine Bible and the Eusebian "Christian History"
existed before their literary appearance with Constantine.

I believe that evidence exists by which it may be
determined that Christianity did not appear in the
archaeological record until the fourth century. It
will be the role of science and technology to arbitur
over the chronology of the invention of christianity.

Where hundreds of years of textual critics have failed,
a few decades of science and archaeology might well
succeed in showing the search for the historical Jesus
begins as literary invention by a Roman emperor in
the fourth century.

And it wont be a moment too soon.

Pete Brown

I know I've seen this before but do you have any supporting information outside of your personal research? I find this interesting.

Thanks!

View Poll Results: When Will Evangelicals Be Forced To Live in Isolated Farms Like the Amish Do Today?
They already are!	3	7.89%
10 Years	0	0%
20 Years	4	10.53%
30 Years	3	7.89%
50 Years or more	8	21.05%
Never.	20	52.63%
Voters: 38. You may not vote on this poll

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10-07-2007, 12:39 PM	#11
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	This topic is too current for BCH, and not especially connected to Biblical criticism or history (which in the forum, extends throught the middle ages.) I will move it to GRD.

10-07-2007, 12:42 PM	#12
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	John Loftus - you need to read more carefully. Price is talking about Orthodox Jews living in farms next to the Amish if they are to maintain their separate character. The Evangelicals are already too involved with popular culture to pull back.

10-07-2007, 03:09 PM	#15
EthnAlln Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Burlington, Vermont Posts: 5,179	The movement will bifurcate, and a small remnant of True Believers will continue with the old repressive, intolerant puritanism. It won't die out quickly, but it will shrink in numbers, like the Shakers (who carried chastity to the ultimate extreme, like the Manichaeans), and perhaps go out like a flickering candle, eventually. The compromises we are now seeing are a tiny reflection of what the Enlightenment did to the old mainstream churches. They made Christians ashamed of the more ferocious aspects of their doctrine, so that soon Christians were themselves opposing slavery, despite having no doctrinal reason to do so. The same thing is now happening with homosexuality, as the view that homosexuality is a choice becomes increasingly difficult to defend. Evangelicals are just as subject to social pressure and the Zeitgeist as anyone else. Exhibit A: "Christian rock music." Another important question: How long before we get Shiite rock music?

10-10-2007, 09:08 AM	#16
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	I strongly recommend we persuade evangelicals that the only true path is to become hermits and live on styli, probably in a nuclear test site in Nevada.

10-10-2007, 09:14 AM	#17
Ray Moscow Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Surrey, England Posts: 1,255	One problem with the poll question: the Amish are not forced to live in isolated communities -- they choose to do that.

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