Freethought & Rationalism Archive

stephan huller · 03-28-2013, 07:23 PM

Perhaps the best argument against the absorption of Egyptian ideas at the earliest period of Christianity is the fact that Clement of Alexandria and (apparently) the Alexandrian Church he represented resist the idea of Jesus being born from a woman. Two examples from the same book of what Clement understood by the concept of 'virginity.' The first is a citation of contemporary advocates of Mary's virginity - it is clearly not the view of the Egyptian Church as such:

Quote:

But, as appears, many even down to our own time regard Mary, on account of the birth of her child, as having been in the puerperal state, although she was not. For some say that, after she brought forth, she was found, when examined, to be a virgin. Now such to us are the Scriptures of the Lord, which gave birth to the truth and continue virgin, in the concealment of the mysteries of the truth. "And she brought forth, and yet brought not forth," Says the Scripture; as having conceived of herself, and not from conjunction. Wherefore the Scriptures have conceived to Gnostics; but the heresies, not having learned them, dismissed them as not having conceived. [Strom 7.16]

and again a little earlier, 'virginity' is not a physical state carried over from 'never being touched' by another person, but a mystical state achieved through (secret) ritual initiation:

Quote:

There is one alone, then, who from the beginning was free of concupiscence -- the man-loving (= philanthropic) Lord, who for us became man. And whosoever endeavour to be assimilated to the impress given by Him, strive, from exercise, to become free of lust. For he who has exercised lust and then restrained himself, is like a widow who becomes again a virgin by continence. Such is the reward of knowledge, rendered to the Saviour and Teacher, which He Himself asked for, -- abstinence from what is evil, activity in doing good, by which salvation is acquired.

As, then, those who have learned the arts procure their living by what they have been taught, so also is the Gnostic saved, procuring life by what he knows. For he who has not formed the wish to extirpate the passion of the soul, kills himself. But, as seems, ignorance is the starvation of the soul, and knowledge its sustenance.

Such are the gnostic souls, which the Gospel likened to the consecrated virgins who wait for the Lord. For they are virgins, in respect of their abstaining from what is evil. And in respect of their waiting out of love for the Lord and kindling their light for the contemplation of things, they are wise souls, saying, "Lord, for long we have desired to receive Thee; we have lived according to what Thou hast enjoined, transgressing none of Thy commandments. Wherefore also we claim the promises. [ibid 7.12]

It does not seem as if Clement's Egyptian Church accepted the idea that Mary was a virgin before Jesus's birth. He cites the very same scripture used to argue for that understanding (= Isa 66.7) and turns it around as if it had something to do with the development of the New Testament. It would seem to me that Clement testifies that those who did believe that Mary was a virgin did so because of a particular interpretation of Jewish scripture. If Clement thought that it was owing to the influence of paganism or Isis, he certainly would have said so.

Toto · 03-28-2013, 10:32 PM

The discussion of cranks has been split off here.

Please stick to the topic in this thread.

outhouse · 03-28-2013, 11:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert Tulip

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom Sawyer

Wait, so the woman who had a kid with her brother is being held up by someone as an example of virginal purity?

I'm thinking that the people who compared Isis to Mary didn't really know a whole lot about Egyptian religion.

Thanks Tom. Isis is not a woman, but a goddess, as we might say is the Queen of Heaven, the Blessed Virgin Mary of the Immaculate Conception.

As I recall, Mary purportedly "had a kid" with Jehovah, her Eternal Father in Heaven, and yet is held up by some as an example of virginal purity. Is not this just the same mythical contradiction we see in the very concept of virgin mother?

Those who are in denial about the abundant continuity between Isis and Mary don't "really know a whole lot about Egyptian religion."

It is quite wrong to imagine that the myth of the virgin birth of Jesus Christ sprang forth fully formed in Christianity like Athena from the brow of Zeus. The virgin birth is a deep archetypal mythic story, with abundant evolutionary continuity with its memetic sources in older religion.

Show us one passage in the synoptic gospels, that can show Mary's mythology as being influenced directly from Isis.

Without mental gymnastics.

Robert Tulip · 03-29-2013, 07:29 PM

We had quite a good discussion of this topic of Isis and Mary at http://www.booktalk.org/christ-in-eg...ry-t11019.html

Acharya discusses at Is Lazarus a Remake of Osiris?

outhouse · 03-29-2013, 07:37 PM

No really! one, one simple passage will do.

I dont need a thread, I dont need her spin on it, nor her book, nor Larareth .

Just, Show us one passage in the synoptic gospels, that can show Mary's mythology as being influenced directly from Isis.

Without mental gymnastics.

Jeffrey Gibson · 03-30-2013, 09:24 AM

Another response.

==2==

Quote:

From: <mafdet@waitrose.com>

Also the Greeks don't ever claim that Isis would be a virgin, but
as the Isis cult spread throughout the Graeco-Roman world by
the 4th century BCE, the value of chastity was added as a principle
through its Greek interpretation. The best work on this topic is

Heyob, S. K. 1975 _The Cult of Isis Among Women in the
Graeco-Roman World_. Études Préliminaires aux Religion
Orientales dans L'Empire Romain. Leiden: Brill.

Heyob notes that abstinence from sex - by both married and
unmarried adherents of the cult - is first noted in the Delos
cults of Isis, which begin about the 4th century BCE (Heyob
1975: 122). These 10-day periods of abstention were required
before a woman was initiated into the cult, and again before the
performance of certain rituals.
Further, Greek interpretations of Isis name her as the protectress
of the chastity of lovers while parted, and as an extension of this
protection, infant daughters were often dedicated to Isis in order
to protect their virginity. Meanwhile women often fled to the temples
of the goddess in order to protect themselves from violation (Heyob
1975: 123).

Heyob notes that early Christian writers generally commended the
Isis cult, primarily on its principles of sexual abstention (Heyob
1975: 123-6). Lacantius, Clement of Alexandria, and Tertullian
"singled out Egyptian gods and their devotees as examples of
chaste individuals" (1975: 125). Tertullian notes the chastity of the
cult of Isis (whom he calls the "African Ceres") was of a strictness
such that married female adherents, whom he called "Widows,"
separated themselves from their living husbands, introduced new
wives to their former husbands, and would avoid all contact with
men, even to avoiding kisses from their own sons. Heyob continues:
"This was a difficult observance, 'nevertheless, by enduring usage
they persevered in such a discipline of widowhood which excluded
even the solaces of sacral piety.' (Tertullian, Ad uxor, 1.6). Tertullian
evidently considered the chastity of the devotees, _of the goddess
herself_, and of the priests of the Apis bull quite remarkable for in
several other instances he held it up as examples for Christians
(Tertullian, Castit. 13, Monog. 17, Ieuin. 16) (Heyob 1975: 126;
_emphasis_, mine).

The cult's requirements of sexual abstention for ritual purposes is,
of course, a far cry from declaring that Isis, though celibate at
times, was ever to be regarded as a "virgin." However, this
admiration of the cult's sexual abstinence principles may have
led early Christians into transmuting and accepting Isis Lactans
statues from the cult more readily into the developing Virgin
Mary cult.

I hope this assists.

Regards --

Katherine Griffis-Greenberg

Oriental Institute
Doctoral Programme in Oriental Studies [Egyptology]
Oxford University
Oxford, United Kingdom

I suggest that anyone here who holds to the "academic Egyptologists live in terror of losing their jobs if they acknowledge the thruth about Isis contained in AS's materials" claim contact Katherine to see if this is why she does not give the idea of Isis as a perpetual virgin any credence.

And to anticipate something: shall we wager that those who hold to this claim will accuse Katherine (who, so far as I know, holds no job in Egyptology momentnt) of lying if she doesn't confirm what is believed about the real/only reason she denies that Isis was regarded as a virgin?

Jeffrey

Jeffrey Gibson · 03-30-2013, 10:16 AM

Here's a challenge to those, including AS, who believe that ancient Egyptians presented Isis as a perpetual virgin. Join the Yale Egyptology List (http://egyptologyforum.org/) and present your case there.

(details on how to join are here: http://egyptologyforum.org/EEFApply.html)

And after you do so, let them know, especially if they don't acknowledge the validity of your claim and the strength of the evidence you put forward in support of it, about your "living in terror" hypothesis as the real and only reason they take the stance they do to see what they have to say about this claim.

And let me note that any resistance to doing so that is based in the notion that you already know what they are going to say is not a valid excuse for not doing what I ask. Why not get concrete (rather than imagined) expressions of it?

Jeffrey

aa5874 · 03-30-2013, 10:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

It does not seem as if Clement's Egyptian Church accepted the idea that Mary was a virgin before Jesus's birth....

You appear to be completely in error. I do not understand how you have managed to mis-understand the fundamentals of the writings atrributed to Clement regarding the matter that Jesus was the product of a Virgin.

Please examine Clement's Paedagogus 1

Quote:

...... But the Lord Christ, the fruit of the Virgin, did not pronounce the breasts of women blessed, nor selected them to give nourishment; but when the kind and loving Father had rained down the Word, Himself became spiritual nourishment to the good. O mystic marvel! The universal Father is one, and one the universal Word; and the Holy Spirit is one and the same everywhere, and one is the only virgin mother...

Bernard Muller · 03-30-2013, 11:03 AM

Here is a complement to my earliest post (uncommented upon!):

A virgin conception was not new in the Jewish world:

a) Paul himself may have suggested it, about the (promised by God) late (and only) pregnancy of Abraham's wife, resulting in the birth of Isaac, "the son born by the power of the Spirit" (Gal 4:29).

b) According to Philo of Alexandria (20 BCE-50 CE), a popular Hellenistic Jew, scholar, theologian & philosopher:
"Tamar, when she became pregnant of divine seeds, and did not know who it was who had sown them ..." (On the Change of Names, XXIII)
"For when she [Hannah] had become pregnant, having received the divine seed ..." (On the unchangeableness of God, II)
"the angels of God went in unto the daughters of men, and they bore children unto them." (On the unchangeableness of God, I)

My whole article can be seen here

Cordially, Bernard

Toto · 03-30-2013, 11:22 AM

I think I see the problem here.

The academics are talking about actual virginity, the virgin intacta. They have all these facts on their side based on deep knowledge of history and language.

Acharya S and friends are talking about the [Jungian?] mystical archetype of the "virgin" which somehow morphs into the archetype for the "mother." But I can't see how this sort of analysis can be used to show that Christianity is merely warmed up (warmed over?) Egyptian religion. The patterns are too broad, and if Jung was right, there might be some sort of deep structure to religion, and every religion can be fit into this basic pattern.

03-30-2013, 11:03 AM	#59
Bernard Muller Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Alberta, Canada Posts: 927	An alternative from Isis! Here is a complement to my earliest post (uncommented upon!): A virgin conception was not new in the Jewish world: a) Paul himself may have suggested it, about the (promised by God) late (and only) pregnancy of Abraham's wife, resulting in the birth of Isaac, "the son born by the power of the Spirit" (Gal 4:29). b) According to Philo of Alexandria (20 BCE-50 CE), a popular Hellenistic Jew, scholar, theologian & philosopher: "Tamar, when she became pregnant of divine seeds, and did not know who it was who had sown them ..." (On the Change of Names, XXIII) "For when she [Hannah] had become pregnant, having received the divine seed ..." (On the unchangeableness of God, II) "the angels of God went in unto the daughters of men, and they bore children unto them." (On the unchangeableness of God, I) My whole article can be seen here Cordially, Bernard

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03-28-2013, 10:32 PM	#52
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	The discussion of cranks has been split off here. Please stick to the topic in this thread.

03-29-2013, 07:29 PM	#54
Robert Tulip Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Canberra, Australia Posts: 635	We had quite a good discussion of this topic of Isis and Mary at http://www.booktalk.org/christ-in-eg...ry-t11019.html Acharya discusses at Is Lazarus a Remake of Osiris?

03-29-2013, 07:37 PM	#55
outhouse Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Auburn ca Posts: 4,269	No really! one, one simple passage will do. I dont need a thread, I dont need her spin on it, nor her book, nor Larareth . Just, Show us one passage in the synoptic gospels, that can show Mary's mythology as being influenced directly from Isis. Without mental gymnastics.

03-30-2013, 10:16 AM	#57
Jeffrey Gibson Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 3,058	Here's a challenge to those, including AS, who believe that ancient Egyptians presented Isis as a perpetual virgin. Join the Yale Egyptology List (http://egyptologyforum.org/) and present your case there. (details on how to join are here: http://egyptologyforum.org/EEFApply.html) And after you do so, let them know, especially if they don't acknowledge the validity of your claim and the strength of the evidence you put forward in support of it, about your "living in terror" hypothesis as the real and only reason they take the stance they do to see what they have to say about this claim. And let me note that any resistance to doing so that is based in the notion that you already know what they are going to say is not a valid excuse for not doing what I ask. Why not get concrete (rather than imagined) expressions of it? Jeffrey

03-30-2013, 11:22 AM	#60
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	I think I see the problem here. The academics are talking about actual virginity, the virgin intacta. They have all these facts on their side based on deep knowledge of history and language. Acharya S and friends are talking about the [Jungian?] mystical archetype of the "virgin" which somehow morphs into the archetype for the "mother." But I can't see how this sort of analysis can be used to show that Christianity is merely warmed up (warmed over?) Egyptian religion. The patterns are too broad, and if Jung was right, there might be some sort of deep structure to religion, and every religion can be fit into this basic pattern.

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