Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Richbee · 03-15-2006, 02:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sven

Oh, I see. Saying "you are wrong" is somehow considered to be an argument.

Wei Getz?

Pop Quiz:

Do you know what happened to false prophets in the Hebrew or Jewish society?

And, of course, if one accepts that Ezekiel's prophecy was further fulfilled by Alexander the Great, the exact date of the book of Ezekiel becomes a moot issue, or of no conquence.

Auf Wiedersehn

DANKE SCHÖN

Richbee · 03-15-2006, 02:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jack the Bodiless

Just to knock this "historical sources" stuff on the head (again), here's the Encyclopaedia Britannica on "Tyre":

So, Nebby failed to breach Tyre and actually defeat it, but there was no "sovereign kingdom of Tyre" when Alex arrived. NEITHER "fulfilled the prophecy".

Ahem, consider............

The city of Tyre was one of the most prominent commercial cities in the Mediterranean in ancient times.

Today, nothing of its supremacy remains.

The Judeo-Christian Scriptures predicted the desolation of Tyre: that God in His righteous judgment would destroy this city because of its people's sins against Him. The Scriptures provide significant insight into the nature of the Hebrew God, Yahweh, His attributes, and why He is to be feared and honored.

[The Kingdom of] Tyre was once the commercial center of the ancient world, a market place of nations, and a city renown for its beauty and elegance. This city was described as a very wealthy and luxurious place where commerce revolved and business flourished. In the book of Isaiah (23:8), its merchants are called princes, and its traders are designated as "the honorable of the earth." It is apparent that these individuals held tremendous status and power, and that their city was one of the most illustrious and prestigious in the known world.

As we look into the Judeo-Christian Scriptures we find that the people of Tyre became very prideful and vain. In the prophecy of Ezekiel, the Lord says, "...your heart is lifted up, and you say, 'I am a god, I sit in the seat of gods, in the midst of the seas,' Yet you are a man, and not a god" (28:2). According to the book of Ezekiel, the purpose of God's judgment was to humble the people of Tyre and to judge their wickedness. God revealed that though man can say he is a god, he is powerless against the sting of death and the righteous judgments of God.

The book of Ezekiel is dated 593 B.C. to 570 B.C., and was written by a Hebrew prophet named Ezekiel who identifies himself as "Ezekiel the priest, the son of Buzi." The prophesy against the city of Tyre begins in chapter 26 of this account, where Ezekiel receives a vision from God in which He reveals the destruction of Tyre because of its people's depravity. God's purpose was to humble the people of Tyre, and pronounce His judgments on those who chose to make themselves gods in their own sight. Ezekiel declares seven prophesies in chapter 26:3-21:

Ezekiel 26:3-21

"Therefore thus says the Lord God: 'Behold, I am against you, O Tyre, and will cause many nations to come up against you, as the sea causes its waves to come up [Prediction 1]. And they shall destroy the walls of Tyre and break down her towers; and I will also scrape her dust from her, and make her like the top of a rock [Prediction 2]. It shall be a place for spreading nets in the midst of the sea; it shall become plunder for the nations [Prediction 3]... He will slay with the sword your daughter villages in the fields; he will heap up a siege mound against you, build a wall against you, and raise a defense against you [Prediction 4]... They will plunder your riches and pillage your merchandise; they will breakdown your walls and destroy your pleasant houses; they will lay your stones, your timber, and your soil in the midst of the water [Prediction 5]... I will make you like the top of a rock; you shall be a place for spreading of nets, and you shall never be rebuilt [Prediction 6]... I will make you a terror, and you shall be no more; though you are sought for, you will never be found again [Prediction 7].

This Prophesy must be compared to external historical accounts, and must be scrutinized for validity. Shortly after Ezekiel prophesied of God's judgment against Tyre, King Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon laid siege to Tyre. After a thirteen-year siege, Nebuchadnezzar broke down the city gates and found the city virtually abandoned. [Some] Most of Tyre's citizens moved to an island about one-half mile off the mainland, and there they fortified a city. Though mainland Tyre was destroyed in 573 B.C. by Nebuchadnezzar's army (Prediction 4), Tyre continued to flourish and remained a powerful city many years thereafter.

Source:: More

Richbee · 03-15-2006, 02:54 PM

Just for the record......

Ezekiel 28 (New International Version)

A Prophecy Against the King of Tyre

1 The word of the LORD came to me:
2 "Son of man, say to the ruler of Tyre,
'This is what the Sovereign LORD says:

" 'In the pride of your heart
you say, "I am a god;
I sit on the throne of a god
in the heart of the seas."
But you are a man and not a god,
though you think you are as wise as a god.
3 Are you wiser than Daniel?
Is no secret hidden from you?

4 By your wisdom and understanding
you have gained wealth for yourself
and amassed gold and silver
in your treasuries.

5 By your great skill in trading
you have increased your wealth,
and because of your wealth
your heart has grown proud.

6 " 'Therefore this is what the Sovereign LORD says:
" 'Because you think you are wise,
as wise as a god,

7 I am going to bring foreigners against you,
the most ruthless of nations;
they will draw their swords against your beauty and wisdom
and pierce your shining splendor.

8 They will bring you down to the pit,
and you will die a violent death
in the heart of the seas.

9 Will you then say, "I am a god,"
in the presence of those who kill you?
You will be but a man, not a god,
in the hands of those who slay you.

10 You will die the death of the uncircumcised
at the hands of foreigners.
I have spoken, declares the Sovereign LORD.' "

11 The word of the LORD came to me:

12 "Son of man, take up a lament concerning the king of Tyre and say to him:

'This is what the Sovereign LORD says:
" 'You were the model of perfection,
full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.

13 You were in Eden,
the garden of God;
every precious stone adorned you:
ruby, topaz and emerald,
chrysolite, onyx and jasper,
sapphire, turquoise and beryl.
Your settings and mountings were made of gold;
on the day you were created they were prepared.

14 You were anointed as a guardian cherub,
for so I ordained you.
You were on the holy mount of God;
you walked among the fiery stones.

15 You were blameless in your ways
from the day you were created
till wickedness was found in you.

16 Through your widespread trade
you were filled with violence,
and you sinned.
So I drove you in disgrace from the mount of God,
and I expelled you, O guardian cherub,
from among the fiery stones.

17 Your heart became proud
on account of your beauty,
and you corrupted your wisdom
because of your splendor.
So I threw you to the earth;
I made a spectacle of you before kings.

18 By your many sins and dishonest trade
you have desecrated your sanctuaries.
So I made a fire come out from you,
and it consumed you,
and I reduced you to ashes on the ground
in the sight of all who were watching.

19 All the nations who knew you
are appalled at you;
you have come to a horrible end
and will be no more.' "

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...=28&version=31

Jack the Bodiless · 03-15-2006, 04:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richbee

Pop Quiz:

Do you know what happened to false prophets in the Hebrew or Jewish society?

Yes: nothing at all.

The Bible says that they should be put to death, but that was never enforced. That's why the Bible contains failed prophecies.

Also, if you bothered to READ THE THREAD, you'd see that the actual role of a Hebrew "navi" was discussed repeatedly, by ME.

Quote:

And, of course, if one accepts that Ezekiel's prophecy was further fulfilled by Alexander the Great, the exact date of the book of Ezekiel becomes a moot issue, or of no conquence.

...But it wasn't.

Quote:

This Prophesy must be compared to external historical accounts, and must be scrutinized for validity. Shortly after Ezekiel prophesied of God's judgment against Tyre, King Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon laid siege to Tyre. After a thirteen-year siege, Nebuchadnezzar broke down the city gates and found the city virtually abandoned. [Some] Most of Tyre's citizens moved to an island about one-half mile off the mainland, and there they fortified a city.

This was false the last time you posted it (on another thread) and it hasn't become true since then. So why repeat it here?

It was the ISLAND that Nebby beseiged for 13 years. It was the ISLAND that he FAILED to breach the defenses of.

...And what's with the huge Bible quotes? They don't change the fact that the prophecy failed.

Now, I'll take this to the other thread. No need to continue here.

Johnny Skeptic · 03-16-2006, 03:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic

The Tyre prophecy cannot be accurately dated. Therefore, the prophecy is not valid even if all of its predictions came true. Game, set, and match to the skeptics.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richbee

Your ignorance of Ezekiel and the Jewish Religion only invalidates your opinion here.

Rather, your ignorance serves only to invalidate your opinion. Other than "the Bible says so," you don't have any evidence at all that the Tyre prophecy was written before the events.

Are you not aware that historically, kingdoms rising and falling has been the rule, not the exception?

If God is evil and deceptive, he could easily duplicate anything that is attributed to the God of the Bible, so you don't really have any intelligent arguments to make whatsoever. Paul says that Satan has transformed himself into an angel of light. Would't it be quite natural for an evil, deceptive God to transform himself into an angel of light?

Sven · 03-16-2006, 07:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richbee

Do you know what happened to false prophets in the Hebrew or Jewish society?

And, of course, if one accepts that Ezekiel's prophecy was further fulfilled by Alexander the Great, the exact date of the book of Ezekiel becomes a moot issue, or of no conquence.

Please do yourself a favor and read the f***ing thread first before you reply to it. All what you wrote above (and in your following post) has been addressed already at least 5 times.

As soon as you are done with this thread, I advice you to also take a look at the threads linked to at the bottom of the page.

Both of us will benefit from this. You because you don't make a fool out of yourself with repeating claims which were already beaten to death about 100 000 times, and we because discussions with people who know about the claims and the answers to the claims are much more interesting - sometimes even something new comes up!

bfniii · 05-23-2006, 02:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boro Nut

I couldn't agree more. He's not stupid. He doesn't want to introduce any moral impediment to allowing him make you suffer some more. It must be a lonely job burning ant's legs off with a magnifying glass. Boro Nut

i just got through stating that some people believe there is purpose in suffering. here you make it sound like there isn't purpose.

bfniii · 05-23-2006, 02:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jack the Bodiless

Just to knock this "historical sources" stuff on the head (again)

not that you did any other times

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jack the Bodiless

here's the Encyclopaedia Britannica on "Tyre":
successfully withstood

like i have said several times, nebuchadnezzar accomplished his part of the prophecy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jack the Bodiless

ruled by the Achaemenian kings of Persia
So, Nebby failed to breach Tyre and actually defeat it, but there was no "sovereign kingdom of Tyre" when Alex arrived. NEITHER "fulfilled the prophecy".

let me get this straight, nebuchadnezzar attacks tyre, as predicted. over the years, tyre is decimated physically and corporately, as predicted. but the prophecy is false.

Jack the Bodiless · 05-24-2006, 08:29 AM

bfniii, why have you resurrected a long-dead thread in order to say nothing of consequence?

Quote:

Originally Posted by bfniii

like i have said several times, nebuchadnezzar accomplished his part of the prophecy.

This statement is, of course, false.

From post #575:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jack the Bodiless

But Ezekiel is referring to the ISLAND. This is clear from the text. The switch from "your [Tyre's] daughters in the field" (mainland settlements) to "your" [Tyre's] walls and towers. And the failed prophecy that Nebby's horses would go down ALL Tyre's streets (which would HAVE to include those on the island). And so on.

Quite apart from your head-in-the-sand denial regarding the "walls of Tyre" issue, you're still carefully avoiding that reference to ALL of Tyre's streets.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bfniii

let me get this straight, nebuchadnezzar attacks tyre, as predicted. over the years, tyre is decimated physically and corporately, as predicted. but the prophecy is false.

Yes, the prophecy is false. Because Nebby failed to CONQUER Tyre. And because the permanent physical destruction of Tyre was prophesied: and yet Tyre endures.

ETA: After Alexander, Tyre regained its independence (from the Seleucids) in 126 BC. So there WAS a time when the "independent kingdom of Tyre" existed again, until it fell under Roman rule.

bfniii · 05-27-2006, 08:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jack the Bodiless

From post #575:

But Ezekiel is referring to the ISLAND. This is clear from the text. The switch from "your [Tyre's] daughters in the field" (mainland settlements) to "your" [Tyre's] walls and towers.

the "switch" does not imply that he is referring to the island. one is about places, the other is about things.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jack the Bodiless

And the failed prophecy that Nebby's horses would go down ALL Tyre's streets (which would HAVE to include those on the island). And so on.

no, it didn't have to include the island.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jack the Bodiless

Quite apart from your head-in-the-sand denial regarding the "walls of Tyre" issue,

i haven't denied it. i just don't read into the passage like you are doing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jack the Bodiless

you're still carefully avoiding that reference to ALL of Tyre's streets.

i just read back through this thread and the biblical errors thread and i have addressed this point several times

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jack the Bodiless

Yes, the prophecy is false. Because Nebby failed to CONQUER Tyre.

not that you have ever shown that is what ezekiel intended.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jack the Bodiless

ETA: After Alexander, Tyre regained its independence (from the Seleucids) in 126 BC. So there WAS a time when the "independent kingdom of Tyre" existed again, until it fell under Roman rule.

in order for you to maintain that, you would have to show that the "kingdom" you refer to was made up of tyrians from the original nation. otherwise, it's not the same. we might use as an example the jews returning from babylon and re-establishing their nation. iirc, tyre was populated by people that alexander imported there. if that is the case, a mostly greek population gaining their independence from the seleucids just isn't the same thing. i understand that you feel like some tyrians from the original state returned. we don't have any guarantee of that account's accuracy nor is a scant few people among mostly greek people comparable.

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03-15-2006, 02:54 PM	#593
Richbee Banned Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Falls Church, Virginia Posts: 264	Just for the record...... Ezekiel 28 (New International Version) A Prophecy Against the King of Tyre 1 The word of the LORD came to me: 2 "Son of man, say to the ruler of Tyre, 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: " 'In the pride of your heart you say, "I am a god; I sit on the throne of a god in the heart of the seas." But you are a man and not a god, though you think you are as wise as a god. 3 Are you wiser than Daniel? Is no secret hidden from you? 4 By your wisdom and understanding you have gained wealth for yourself and amassed gold and silver in your treasuries. 5 By your great skill in trading you have increased your wealth, and because of your wealth your heart has grown proud. 6 " 'Therefore this is what the Sovereign LORD says: " 'Because you think you are wise, as wise as a god, 7 I am going to bring foreigners against you, the most ruthless of nations; they will draw their swords against your beauty and wisdom and pierce your shining splendor. 8 They will bring you down to the pit, and you will die a violent death in the heart of the seas. 9 Will you then say, "I am a god," in the presence of those who kill you? You will be but a man, not a god, in the hands of those who slay you. 10 You will die the death of the uncircumcised at the hands of foreigners. I have spoken, declares the Sovereign LORD.' " 11 The word of the LORD came to me: 12 "Son of man, take up a lament concerning the king of Tyre and say to him: 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: " 'You were the model of perfection, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty. 13 You were in Eden, the garden of God; every precious stone adorned you: ruby, topaz and emerald, chrysolite, onyx and jasper, sapphire, turquoise and beryl. Your settings and mountings were made of gold; on the day you were created they were prepared. 14 You were anointed as a guardian cherub, for so I ordained you. You were on the holy mount of God; you walked among the fiery stones. 15 You were blameless in your ways from the day you were created till wickedness was found in you. 16 Through your widespread trade you were filled with violence, and you sinned. So I drove you in disgrace from the mount of God, and I expelled you, O guardian cherub, from among the fiery stones. 17 Your heart became proud on account of your beauty, and you corrupted your wisdom because of your splendor. So I threw you to the earth; I made a spectacle of you before kings. 18 By your many sins and dishonest trade you have desecrated your sanctuaries. So I made a fire come out from you, and it consumed you, and I reduced you to ashes on the ground in the sight of all who were watching. 19 All the nations who knew you are appalled at you; you have come to a horrible end and will be no more.' " http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...=28&version=31

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