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09-19-2011, 06:15 PM | #11 | |
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Neither Tertullian nor Epiphanius mention this material which is paralleled in both canonical gospels immediately following the leper healing narrative:
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09-19-2011, 06:37 PM | #12 | ||||
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Tertullian then repeats a statement which appears many times in Book Four. He claims Marcion explained the 'witness to the priests' associated with the healing of the lepers as an acceptance of the Law of Moses on Jesus's part 'out of kindness' for those who were in the habit of those who followed the Jewish religion. Whatever this means (it is unclear), the important thing for our purposes is the reference which follows that Marcion erased from the Catholic gospel a line which does not appear in Luke but now only in Matthew:
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For those keeping track at home, this is no isolated 'mistake.' The reference appears over three times in Book Four, each time making it explicit that the original author thought Marcion 'erased' the saying from the original Catholic gospel he used to manufacture his heretical text: Quote:
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Once again the evidence seems to point to the pre-existence of a 'super gospel' - an original 'Diatessaron' with stories now 'split up' into Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. I will count this as the third example of the Marcion gospel 'agreeing' with Mark over Luke owing to the fact that Tertullian thinks that something from Mark or Matthew and which is not ever found in Luke was removed by Marcion. |
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09-19-2011, 09:54 PM | #13 | |
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There is very little to say about the next passage Luke 5.17-26. The material must be taken as existing in both Gospels. Tertullian (ch. 10.) alludes to the cure of the man with palsy : he quotes the command of Jesus, " Arise and take up thy bed," and the remark of the Pharisees "who will forgive sins but God alone?" and he discusses the right of Marcion to consider Jesus the Son of man : all which are clear indications of the existence of the passage. Epiphanius quotes "That ye may know that the Son of Man hath power on earth to forgive sins."
The best attempt at reconstructing the original Marcionite passage is provided by Markus Vinzent at his blog: http://markusvinzent.blogspot.com/20...noptic_03.html Quote:
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09-20-2011, 03:52 AM | #14 | |
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"But when He chose His own apostles who where to preach His Gospel, [He did so from among those] who were sinners above all sin, that He might show He came "not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance." Leprosy is to the flesh the same as is sin to the soul. In the gospels, leprosy is a tangible manifestation of sin. So, the twelve sinners are the same with the twelve lepers. |
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09-20-2011, 08:13 AM | #15 | |
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Now, why would Marcion be interested in 'polluting' his Paulinism with the twelve-apostles mantra if he knew Mark, which was clean Paulinist allegory ? The ur-Mark, I have had the strongest feeling did not mean the Twelve to be anything like 'twelve disciples' with Peter on top. If that was the case why were not all twelve on the mountain for the transfig ? Where would the "nine" get the demonstration of the Christ body in resurrection ? The only concessions I can see Mark making to the Nazarenes, is to deploy the Son of Man designation, and more substantially, his Christ's embrace of the 'sinners' which goes beyond Paul. Paul did not distinguish yet between the sin and the sinner. Actually, I think the idea of the Saviour having a dinner with sinners would have made Paul go glossolalic. He was not exactly the 'forgiving' kind, something that Matthew brilliantly capitalized on. This again may be subjective, but I see Luke giving in too much to Matthew 'on the front end', way too much for any Paulinist's liking. For example, he agrees to paint Judas as a traitor, which of course is not what Mark meant to do. Judas was not betraying Jesus of his free will, but as it was foretold (by Paul ). But Matthew of course had to have a spineless coward worse than Peter in his story. That Luke should have taken over - and even rapsodized - on Judas' treachery, is a caving in, which I have difficulty imagining would have had appeal to Marcion. No, I don't think Marcion would have chosen Luke over Mark, had he known both. I fully share your hunch. Stephan, is there anything you can point me to, regards evidence of Mark being known to Marcion ? It seems hard to credit that he would not have known him. Anyone that criticized Harnack in substance for accepting Irenaeus' account ? Thanks in advance. ETA: the university libraries in the city do not have the Raschke's book. I have just checked the catalogues on line. Best, Jiri |
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09-20-2011, 10:30 AM | #16 | ||||||
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Hi Jiri,
Ratschke's book is the place to start. I have the scanned copy here somewhere. Just have to find it. Otherwise the obvious place to start is the fact that Marcion is clearly a subform of the Latin name Marcus. This is universally acknowledged. Either a nickname/diminutive or some other related form and this statement in the Philosophumena: Quote:
It is very hard to believe that the author of the Philosophumena read in Irenaeus that Marcion corrupted Luke and then decided to develop his own theories about Marcion corrupting Mark. Like Ephrem, the author of the Philosophumena knows nothing at all about Marcion corrupting Luke. The argument about Marcion corrupting Luke was clearly added to Tertullian's Against Marcion. The core of that material assumes that Marcion corrupted a Diatessaron (and so the frequent claim from 'Tertullian' that Marcion erased things which were never in Luke). The source here was clearly a Syrian Christian (as can be seen by the order of the epistles in the Apostolikon). While the idea that the author of the Philosophumena might have had a copy of Against Heresies which did not mention the Marcionites is appealing, it doesn't explain how Irenaeus could have introduced Marcion being rejected by Polycarp (AH 3.3) without explaining somewhere who Marcion was. It has to be admitted that none of the references to 'those of Marcion' in Book Two are very important. They could have been later glosses. But 'Marcion' is critical part of Book Three. Just look at the order that the various heretics are implicitly associated with gospels at the beginning of Book Three in Irenaeus: Quote:
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Yet there is another ordering of gospels which appears side by side this John, Luke, Matthew, Mark ordering. It is not the familiar Matthew, Mark, Luke, John ordering of our canon but Matthew, Luke, Mark, John which is witnessed in Against Heresies treatment of the gospels in chapters 9 - 11 culminating with the repetition of the order in this important statement of a longer version of Mark: Quote:
I don't know what to make of this but von Harnack thinks that are Marcionites are referenced as the anonymous group which follows the reference to Marcion in chapter 11 section 7: Quote:
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09-20-2011, 07:23 PM | #17 | |
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The call of Levi the publican (Luke 5. 27-32) is next spoken of by Tertullian (AM 4.11). He quotes the saying of Jesus that "a physician is not necessary to the well, but to those that are ill." Irenaeus quotes the above, as well as its continuation in verse 32, " I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance " (AH 3.5.2). The whole passage might be accepted as existing in both Gospels.
Since ph2ter (is that a clever way of spelling 'physics tutor'?) mentioned the Epistle of Barnabas in his last post let's note what the Alexandrian text says here: Quote:
The point is that the gospel of the Epistle of Barnabas sounds more like the gospel of Clement of Alexandria in Quis Dives Salvetur (where Levi is identified as a figure of great importance). |
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09-20-2011, 10:52 PM | #18 | |
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I should have clarified that 'Levi' isn't mentioned by Clement but rather 'Matthew' his namesake in the parallel account of Mt 9:9 and Mt 10:3. Matthew is called into the circle of the Twelve by Jesus, but without identification of his background, in Mk 3:18, Lk 6:15 and Acts 1:13. The difficulty of course is that none of our canonical gospels 'equates' Matthew with Levi. The understanding that Levi and Matthew might have been different names of the same individual is understood when one places one canonical gospel beside another.
The odd thing of course is that Barnabas's statement that Jesus was calling his apostles when he declared I have come "not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance" almost makes sense in the context of Matthew chapter 9: Quote:
Indeed Clement goes in a more incredible direction still and says that Matthew is one and the same with Zacchaeus, the figure who is only known from canonical Luke and the Marcionite gospel. In fact if you read Clement's argument carefully in the context of Quis Dives Salvetur it is impossible not to see that Zacchaeus appeared in his Alexandrian gospel of Mark. Indeed the whole point of Quis Dives Salvetur is to cite Mark 10:17 - 31 and then to 'explain' or imply that the lesson of the gospel is NOT that God commands Christians to be ritual communists but - because the same gospel narrative ultimately ends with Zacchaeus (and that God only expects people to keep personal wealth and use it for charity/to help others). The point is that the rushed conclusion is to assume that Barnabas is merely citing Matthew, but Clement makes that highly doubtful. Surely Clement couldn't be so far removed from the Alexandrian culture which produced the Epistle of Barnabas that he would deny the possibility that Levi could be Matthew. |
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09-21-2011, 12:54 AM | #19 | |
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And with regards to the idea that the ten lepers were originally held to be ten disciples:
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09-21-2011, 01:22 AM | #20 |
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Zaccheus was according to Luke a chief tax collector.
In 1 Timothy 1 in the name of Paul it is written: "12And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry; 13Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief. 14And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus. 15This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief. 16Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting." Repeatedly, the apostle Paul is characterized as a sinner bigger than all the rest of apostles. P.S. ph2ter comes from *Dyeus Ph2ter, a chief Indo-European deity of thunder. |
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