Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Jeffrey Gibson · 12-21-2008, 11:50 AM

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Originally Posted by EarlDoherty

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Originally Posted by Jeffrey

Upon what ancient text or texts (or archaeological evidence, for that matter) is Hart's assertion about Asclepius being widely known in the ancient world as one who had been resurrected based? Do you know, Pete? And if you do, will you please share this information with us?

If Jeffrey were really interested in learning anything, and in giving us his own judgments about what an author on a given subject were saying, he could go to Hart’s book himself and see what he has to say about the documentation regarding Asclepius’ “resurrection.”

How do you know for certain that I haven't?

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After all, the average person on this board (which for the most part is just about everyone except Jeffrey)

Cheap shot # 1

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often hears about or is directed to some author on a subject under discussion and has been quite willing to try to look up that book and comment on the views being expressed. Jeffrey, of course, will have none of that, since that would mean he would be making a contribution of his own.

Cheap shot (and undocumented claim) # 2

I wonder, Earl, if you'd be kind enough to demonstrate not only (1) that engaging in the elenchus with someone who claims to have a grasp of things when evidence points to the fact that he/she does not, as I have been doing with Pete, is not, contra the testimony of professional logicians and the example of scholars in all fields of knowledge whose deconstructions of others' claims have been published in peer reviewed journals, in any way a contribution, as you claim, but also (2) that your claim that I have never made a contribution is valid?

I'd be grateful if you could actually back up your claims in the matters with evidence rather that assertion..

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That said, it is at least incumbent upon Pete to refer to the Hart book he has pointed us to and give us some indication of what Hart bases his statements on. Toward that end, I’ll also give him some further info which should help him in tracking down the basis for such assertions. (I see no need for myself to do this work, as I am not the one making the claim or whom Jeffrey has challenged.)

Is this really info? Or is it supplying a list of places where such info as Pete needs -- i.e., the primary ancient evidence that testifies to a knowledge or belief in the ancient world that Asclepius was a "resurrected" one -- may (but apparently, so far as you know directly, may not) be found?

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Everett Ferguson (Backgrounds of Early Christianity, p.172-3, a book I deal with at length in my website Mysteries series recently referred to), in dealing with Asclepius, says:

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The only details of Asclepius’ life included in the divine legend are that “he healed the sick and revived the dead.”…He chose to live on earth and never became one of the Olympians [he was son of Apollo in the Epidaurus version of his legend]. He died as a mortal and then came to life again.”

Hardly primary evidence, is it? In what ancient work or works is this "divine legend" to be found? Do you know?

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Ferguson says that on Asclepius “I follow largely the work of the Edelsteins listed in the bibliography”—which is:

Edelstein, Emma J., and Ludwig Edlestein. Asclepius: A collection and Interpretation of the Testimonies. 2 vols. Baltimore, 1945. Reprint. New York, 1975.

Another useful source would be:

Walton, Alice. The Cult of Asklepios. Cornell Studies in Classical Philology, vol. 3. Ithaca. N.Y., 1894. Reprinted 1979 as Asklepios: The Cult of the Greek God of Medicine.

On the other hand, since Jeffrey seems to have easy and unlimited access to texts of all kinds (all of which he is of course intimately familiar with), and from which he often takes the trouble to quote in order to enlighten us, perhaps he would be willing to look up the subject for us in these books (they are seemingly quite reputable) and contribute something to the discussion.

What makes you so sure I haven't done so-- as well as consulted Timothy Ganz' Early Greek Myth or Pauly Wissowa? Or Ovid or Hygenus or the data in the TLG?

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Oh wait, if memory serves, he usually takes that trouble only when he thinks such quotes will kneecap the other poster and save himself having to lay out any of his own knowledge.

Isn't providing what quotes I know will (or in my eyes, have the potential to) "knee cap" someone laying out some of my own knowledge. How is it that I am able to produce them if I don't know about them?

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To actually look things up simply in order to further the discussion is undoubtedly against his religion.

Leaving aside the fact that this is cheap shot #3 and is hardly itself a contribution to the discussion (unless ad hominems are "contributions"), could you please produce evidence that this is indeed what I do?

In any case, I am not sure what your complaint is about, since the issue here is not what I know, but what Pete knows and why he thinks Hart's work (which, if memory serves [to use your phrase]) was panned by professional Classicists is reliable.

And may I ask where your contribution to this thread -- in terms of providing primary evidence rather than doing what you accuse me of illegitimately doing, i.e. in providing only a reading list, or engaging cheap shots - is?

Jeffrey

Clivedurdle · 12-21-2008, 11:51 AM

On the OP it seems discussions about is someone a god or a human were common.

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Greco-Roman god of medicine, son of Apollo (god of healing, truth, and prophecy) and the mortal princess Coronis. The Centaur Chiron taught him the art of healing. At length Zeus (the king of the gods), afraid that Asclepius might render all men immortal, slew him with a thunderbolt. Apollo slew the Cyclopes who had made the thunderbolt and was then forced by Zeus to serve Admetus.
Homer, in the Iliad, mentions him only as a skillful physician and the father of two Greek doctors at Troy, Machaon and Podalirius; in later times, however, he was honoured as a hero and eventually worshiped as a god. The cult began in Thessaly but spread to many parts of Greece. Because it was supposed that Asclepius effected cures of the sick in dreams, the practice of sleeping in his temples in Epidaurus in South Greece became common. In 293 bc his cult spread to Rome, where he was worshiped as Aesculapius.
Asclepius was frequently represented standing, dressed in a long cloak, with bare breast; his usual attribute was a staff with a serpent coiled around it. This staff is the only true symbol of medicine. A similar but unrelated emblem, the caduceus, with its winged staff and intertwined serpents, is frequently used as a medical emblem but is without medical relevance since it represents the magic wand of Hermes, or Mercury, the messenger of the gods and the patron of trade.
Related Links

Aspects of this topic are discussed in the following places at Britannica.
Assorted References

role in concepts of medicine ( in medicine, history of: Early Greece ) ...between gods and men among the characters and between historical fact and poetic fancy in the story. Two characters, the military surgeons Podaleirius and Machaon, are said to have been sons of Asclepius, the god of medicine. The divine Asclepius may have originated in a human Asclepius who lived about 1200 bc and is said to have performed many miracles of healing.

association with

Hygieia ( in Hygieia ) in Greek religion, goddess of health. The oldest traces of her cult are at Titane, west of Corinth, where she was worshipped together with Asclepius, the god of medicine. At first no special relationship existed between her and Asclepius, but gradually she came to be regarded as his daughter; later literature, however, makes her his wife. The cult of Hygieia spread concurrently with his and...

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/...7957/Asclepius

Clivedurdle · 12-21-2008, 11:58 AM

http://www.ditext.com/robinson/dia2.html

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This denial that he is conducting an elenchus is insincere, and constitutes what is known as the Socratic slyness or irony.

Jeffrey Gibson · 12-21-2008, 11:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

On the OP it seems discussions about is someone a god or a human were common.

Quote:

Greco-Roman god of medicine, son of Apollo (god of healing, truth, and prophecy) and the mortal princess Coronis. The Centaur Chiron taught him the art of healing. At length Zeus (the king of the gods), afraid that Asclepius might render all men immortal, slew him with a thunderbolt. Apollo slew the Cyclopes who had made the thunderbolt and was then forced by Zeus to serve Admetus.
Homer, in the Iliad, mentions him only as a skillful physician and the father of two Greek doctors at Troy, Machaon and Podalirius; in later times, however, he was honoured as a hero and eventually worshiped as a god. The cult began in Thessaly but spread to many parts of Greece. Because it was supposed that Asclepius effected cures of the sick in dreams, the practice of sleeping in his temples in Epidaurus in South Greece became common. In 293 bc his cult spread to Rome, where he was worshiped as Aesculapius.
Asclepius was frequently represented standing, dressed in a long cloak, with bare breast; his usual attribute was a staff with a serpent coiled around it. This staff is the only true symbol of medicine. A similar but unrelated emblem, the caduceus, with its winged staff and intertwined serpents, is frequently used as a medical emblem but is without medical relevance since it represents the magic wand of Hermes, or Mercury, the messenger of the gods and the patron of trade.
Related Links

Aspects of this topic are discussed in the following places at Britannica.
Assorted References

role in concepts of medicine ( in medicine, history of: Early Greece ) ...between gods and men among the characters and between historical fact and poetic fancy in the story. Two characters, the military surgeons Podaleirius and Machaon, are said to have been sons of Asclepius, the god of medicine. The divine Asclepius may have originated in a human Asclepius who lived about 1200 bc and is said to have performed many miracles of healing.

association with

Hygieia ( in Hygieia ) in Greek religion, goddess of health. The oldest traces of her cult are at Titane, west of Corinth, where she was worshipped together with Asclepius, the god of medicine. At first no special relationship existed between her and Asclepius, but gradually she came to be regarded as his daughter; later literature, however, makes her his wife. The cult of Hygieia spread concurrently with his and...

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/...7957/Asclepius

Sorry, Clive, but none of this is primary evidence. And it certainly says nothing about Ascelpius having been known in the ancient world as one who was "resurrected".

Jeffrey

Clivedurdle · 12-21-2008, 12:11 PM

You seem to have a strange definition of primary evidence.

Homer sees the bloke as a human, later on he is seen as a hero. later as a god.

A series of stories are that he was assassinated because hell may run out of inhabitants because he was making humans immortal. At some point a further twist seems to have happened, that he resurrected himself.

He gets a god as a dad and a consort of the gods as a mum.

As with Zarathustra and Moses and Troy there may be echoes of history.

Would it not be enlightening to approach a tale of someone with a god as a dad and a human as a mum who is said to have power over death and to have resurrected as an echo of older stories?

Which is more likely, that the Jesus story is new or it is a reworking of older stories?

Toto · 12-21-2008, 12:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

http://www.ditext.com/robinson/dia2.html

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This denial that he is conducting an elenchus is insincere, and constitutes what is known as the Socratic slyness or irony.

Jeffrey does not deny that he is conducting an elenchus - he is proud of it. Unfortunately, most of the rest of the posters here see his conduct as an attempt to be the professor and therefor on a higher plane that the rest of us mere mortals. So ironically, he is creating more sympathy for Pete because he has violated the mores of the board.

Clivedurdle · 12-21-2008, 12:25 PM

Of course, the Docesists thought it was unworthy for Jesus to take on flesh - maybe that is evidence of the original view point.

Satan: The Early Christian Tradition (or via: amazon.co.uk) by Jeffrey Burton Russell
http://books.google.com/books?id=gxw...esult#PPA47,M1

All this stuff of earlier echoes of the Jesus story was denounced very strongly in the early church as Satanic, are some of the reactions to mythicist thinking only regurgitation of these screams of heresy?

Clivedurdle · 12-21-2008, 12:28 PM

There are two types of socratic enquiry, open seeking after the truth, and self seeking. It seems Socrates - (if he existed) might have also have been economical with the verite!

Jeffrey Gibson · 12-21-2008, 04:35 PM

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Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

You seem to have a strange definition of primary evidence.

Actually you seem to have no idea of what primary evidence is.

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Homer sees the bloke as a human,

Yes, he does. But where specifically in Homer can we find Homer "seeing" this? What is the Book and verse # of the Iliad in which this "vision" can be found? Do you know. If you don't, then you don't know what the primary evidence -- the evidence upon which the claims in the EB article are based -- for Asclepius originally being seen as human is.

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later on he is seen as a hero.

Seen by whom specifically of ancient writers? Pindar? Aristotle? Hippocrates? Galen? And where precisely in the works of those who saw Asclepius in this way is this "vision" attested. What is the book and chpater/section/verse #? If you can tell me that, and quote the text in which it is said rather than a secondary source that summarizes what is was purportedly seen, then and only then would you be adducing the primary evidence.

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later as a god.

Again what are the names of the ancient writers who see (testify to the belief that) Ascplepius was a god. And where within their works may this testimony be found.

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A series of stories are that he was assassinated because hell may run out of inhabitants because he was making humans immortal.

Where in extant ancient literature can these stories be found?

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At some point a further twist seems to have happened, that he resurrected himself.

I'd very much like to know in which ancient text we can find stories of Asclepius "resurrecting himself". Even your secondary sources don't mention that one!

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He gets a god as a dad and a consort of the gods as a mum.

Is this before or after he gets viewed as a god? Moreover, which ancient writer says so that Asclepius "gets" a god as a dad and a "consort of the gods" (sic) as a mum . And where in their works do they say it?

Jeffrey

Jeffrey Gibson · 12-21-2008, 04:55 PM

[QUOTE=Toto;5711468]

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Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

http://www.ditext.com/robinson/dia2.html

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Jeffrey does not deny that he is conducting an elenchus - he is proud of it.

I am?

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Unfortunately, most of the rest of the posters here see his conduct as an attempt to be the professor and therefor on a higher plane that the rest of us mere mortals. So ironically, he is creating more sympathy for Pete because he has violated the mores of the board.

"Most"? I'd like to see your evidence for that!

And as to violating the "mores" of the board, when did engaging in the elenchus with those who utter nonsense and who make claims based upon nonsense and demonstrable ignorance of what they are talking about, become a violation of the board's mission "to promote rational thought as a better means to access truth?? I should have thought, given the elenchus' pedigree, that it would be something that the moderators would view as being the heart and soul of board's "mores", but what the moderators -- charged as they are by the boards rules of what a moderator is responsible for insuring -- would want to see more of when posters are not being rational.

But what do I know?

Jeffrey

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12-21-2008, 12:11 PM	#45
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	You seem to have a strange definition of primary evidence. Homer sees the bloke as a human, later on he is seen as a hero. later as a god. A series of stories are that he was assassinated because hell may run out of inhabitants because he was making humans immortal. At some point a further twist seems to have happened, that he resurrected himself. He gets a god as a dad and a consort of the gods as a mum. As with Zarathustra and Moses and Troy there may be echoes of history. Would it not be enlightening to approach a tale of someone with a god as a dad and a human as a mum who is said to have power over death and to have resurrected as an echo of older stories? Which is more likely, that the Jesus story is new or it is a reworking of older stories?

12-21-2008, 12:25 PM	#47
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	Of course, the Docesists thought it was unworthy for Jesus to take on flesh - maybe that is evidence of the original view point. Satan: The Early Christian Tradition (or via: amazon.co.uk) by Jeffrey Burton Russell http://books.google.com/books?id=gxw...esult#PPA47,M1 All this stuff of earlier echoes of the Jesus story was denounced very strongly in the early church as Satanic, are some of the reactions to mythicist thinking only regurgitation of these screams of heresy?

12-21-2008, 12:28 PM	#48
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	There are two types of socratic enquiry, open seeking after the truth, and self seeking. It seems Socrates - (if he existed) might have also have been economical with the verite!

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