Helpmabob

I already did (see response #20). Do you mean you want an example, which meets some different criteria?Rather I think you mean: no loving God of which at this moment you personally can conceive and fully understand would do anything less.It was faith that was credited to Abraham as righteousness. It was not through law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith. [Romans 4:13] God will judge justly - those without faith are due to be judged on their own righteousness if that is what they insist will suffice.In saving people from drowning God put His own life on the line. There would be signs warning of the rough seas, but we went in swimming anyway. So He dived in to save us. Folk still swam away, thinking perhaps that they could reach land themselves. Have you really considered just what are you asking of God?The more I trust God, the less I question Him. God God has provided bounteously for all in this life, but has allowed us to distribute it as we see fit. Greed means that some end up with too little, others with too much. The sin of greed is prevalent like a plague - that is the cause, not God.Not as such – have you? God heals, but there is much more to God than being a heavenly doctor: And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well; the Lord will raise him up. If he has sinned, he will be forgiven. [James 5:15].

Jack the Bodiless

Surely "written before the event" and "verifiably fulfilled" are rather essential characteristics for any claim of "fulfilled prophecy"?

I hereby prophesy the destruction of New York's World Trade Center on September 11th 2001. I also prophesy that this event will coincide with a small stone suddenly turning bright green on the far side of the Moon.

How can fulfilled prophesies be a "strong pointer to the worthiness of the Bible" if there is no evidence that the Bible actually contains any genuine examples of such?
What nonsense is this? God certainly didn't "put his own life on the line", and if the tales of his omnipotence were true, he could have saved everyone. Have you really considered just what are you claiming about God?

Wads4

What do you think about the frequent new testament statements that certain things were done "in order that the prophecies might be fulfilled" eg Jesus riding into Jerusalem on an ass (or two),-which I believe occurs in Matthew, and appears to have been copied from Zechariah. If Jesus had already decided that he wanted to be a Messiah, and he scanned the Old Testament for items that he could then re-enact - isn't that cheating? Also all the things he did which had already been done by Elijah? We know he was a great follower of the Old Testament law and the doings of ancient heros like Elijah, -so he merely copied them so he could claim to have fulfilled them.

Isn't reverse-engineering like this much more probable than the assertion that all Israelite holy men living hundreds of years earlier all had a magical ability to foretell the future? Be reasonable.

Wads4

Like Isaiah saying a virgin would conceive and produce someone called Immanuel?--although this turns out to be a mis-translation of "young woman",- and the baby produced was not Immanuel but Jesus (or Yeshua),--and the context demonstrates Isaiah was referring to a contemporary young woman, not someone called Mary who lived about 700 years later,--why the long delay?
I think Jesus read Isaiah and said, "we Jews need a Messiah to get rid of the Romans, and I wanna be Messiah, so lets use this text from Isaiah to show that I am the one, and was prophesised, then no-one can argue"

Johnny Skeptic

Message to Helpmabob: Will you agree with me that if God exists, he is able to provide additional evidence that would cause more people to become Christians?

If Jesus returned to earth and performed miracles all over the world, I might accept him, in which case I would deserve to go to heaven. It is impossible for me to will myself to love a God who will not give everyone that chance.

What do you believe that God's #1 priority is?

In your opinion, what gives God the right to enforce rules of his own choosing?

Gullwind

Yes. We're asking him why he created the sea, caused the waves, and drove us to the beach in the first place.

Helpmabob

Hi Jack the Bodiless - How can fulfilled prophesies be a "strong pointer to the worthiness of the Bible" if there is no evidence that the Bible actually contains any genuine examples of such? I should have emphasised that experientially, they are only spiritual prophecies, which are recognisable to those of faith. Anecdotally, they are relevant to all.Yes I really have – something divine and mysterious, wonderful and glorious. Yet the claims aren’t really mine- they come from the Bible.

Hi Wads4 – Interesting, can you give the relevant Bible verses for this please, and I will read up on it and comment (probably disagree, but you never know…).

Hi Johnny Skeptic - First of all I am very confident that God exists. Second, I am sure you have asked this sort of hypothetical question before? Nonetheless, I think He is technically able, but He chooses not to, probably because He is aware that, in the long run, it would cause nasty consequences, which we are unable to foresee or appreciate. This is hypothetical again: Jesus did this when He came first. Many believed and were baptised, but not all. You choose Johhny.You presume that God sets priorities like a man. I suppose that He wants to see everyone come to Him, love and glorify Him, clearly without the restriction of sin.I don’t think you need to find an answer such questions before taking faith in God. Otherwise there would be no faith. There will always be questions that cannot be answered. I perceive God as right and just: He has demonstrated this as long as I have been a Christian, so I trust that what He does is right and good, and perfectly just.

Hi Gullwind - Try praying to Him that He would give you understanding of these matters. Do you know how to pray?

Sven

You know that many here deconverted because exactly this did not work?

heretic

Helpmabob, I'm curious, if you'd indulge me.

Do you have any personal experiences with God..? Have you seen him or seen something that has given you some faith in his existence..? Or do you believe him because someone told you so.

If you have, have you objectively looked for an explanation without supernatural cause or have you accepted it as supernatural without this..?

If you havent, why do you trust someone else's opinion of "God". Would you trust any man..?

Johnny Skeptic

Avoiding going to hell is most certainly not a nasty consequence, and is in fact the best possible consequence from a Christian viewpoint. If Jesus exists, if he returned to earth and performed miracles all over the world, I might accept him. If I did (at least some people would), I would deserve to go to heaven, and that would be a good consequence, not a nasty consequence.

75% of the people in the world do not believe that the God of the Bible exists. If God exists, then surely that is a nasty consequence that God has caused by not clearly revealing himself to everyone. Many millions of people have given up Christianity or refused to become Christians because of the awful world that we live in. If God exists, then surely that is a nasty consequence that he could easily have prevented. If God exists, he deliberately created the bacteria (Bubonic Plague) that killed one fourth of the people in Europe. I guess your position is that that was a good consequence. God deliberately created Hurricane Katrina and sent it to New Orleans. I guess your position is that that was a good consequence. Exodus 4:11 says “And the Lord said unto him, Who hath made man's mouth? or who maketh the dumb, or deaf, or the seeing, or the blind? have not I the Lord?” I guess your position is that that is a good consequence. Hebrews 8:6 says “But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises”, but God allowed hundreds of millions of people to die without hearing about the better covenant. I guess your position is that God’s apathetic attitude is a good consequence.
The real truth is that out of your own self-interest you would defend anything that the Bible said, even if it said that a mouse picked up a battleship, and even if it said that Jesus performed miracles all over the world.

Of course, but if Jesus returned to earth and performed miracles all over the world, surely at least some people would become Christians who were not previously convinced, and that would be a good thing.

Words do not confirm actions. Actions confirm words. Words alone prove nothing, but actions alone prove a lot. If you heal a sick person, even if you don’t say anything, your action will be interpreted as an action of love. The writers of the books of Matthew, John and Acts put great emphasis upon miracles. Consider the following Scriptures:

Matthew 4:24-25 And his fame went throughout all Syria: and they brought unto him all sick people that were taken with divers diseases and torments, and those which were possessed with devils, and those which were lunatick, and those that had the palsy; and he healed them. And there followed him great multitudes of people from Galilee, and from Decapolis, and from Jerusalem, and from Judaea, and from beyond Jordan. (KJV)

John 2:23 Now when he was in Jerusalem at the passover, in the feast day, many believed in his name, when they saw the miracles which he did. (KJV)

John 3:2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him. (KJV)

John 10:37-38 Do not believe me unless I do what my Father does. But if I do it, even though you do not believe me, believe the miracles, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father. (NIV)

Johnny: In addition, the texts say that Jesus did lots of things that were not recorded in the Bible.

Acts 14:3 So Paul and Barnabas spent considerable time there, speaking boldly for the Lord, who confirmed the message of his grace by enabling them to do miraculous signs and wonders. (NIV)

Johnny: It is important to note that Acts 14:3 refers to events that took place AFTER the Holy Spirit came to the church. Now why do you suppose that confirmations were needed with thousands of still living eyewitnesses present AND the presence of the Holy Spirit? Today, since there aren’t any still living eyewitnesses around, there is much more need of confirmations.

Matthew 8:16 When the even was come, they brought unto him many that were possessed with devils: and he cast out the spirits with his word, and healed all that were sick. (KJV)

Matthew 14:14 And Jesus went forth, and saw a great multitude, and was moved with compassion toward them, and he healed their sick.” (KJV) Is it your position that compassion is counterproductive? Where is that kind of compassion on Jesus’ part today? Have you ever experienced a miracle healing? If not, do you know anyone who has?

Gary Habermas and R. Douglas Geivett edited and contributed to a book that is titled ‘In Defense of Miracles’. Following are some excerpts:

“Contemporary interest in miracles is not merely an armchair phenomenon. Millions of infirm journey to Lourdes and other places each year, not only desiring but expecting a miracle of physical healing. Countless others trek to Eastern Europe to witness alleged apparitions of the Virgin Mary at Medjugorje. Religious believers quite literally speak of ‘smaller-scale’ miracles happening in their everyday experience: answers to prayer, remarkable provisions of basic needs and a variety of strange coincidences that seem to betoken the interference of some divine agent or agents in the world.”

“Within the academy, the whole subject of miracles has recently undergone a strange reversal of fortune. While theologians and biblical scholars of liberal persuasion perpetuate a virulent skepticism about the miraculous, many professional philosophers openly affirm God’s miraculous involvement in human affairs.”

“In our view, the case for miracles is strong and needs to become better known outside the academy. It is not just a provocative rumor that God has acted in history, but a fact worthy of our intellectual conviction. The miracles of Christianity are not an embarrassment to the Christian worldview. Rather, they are testimony to the compassion of God for human beings benighted by sin and circumstance”.

Johnny: So, do you still believe that miracles produce nasty consequences?

According to the Bible, that seems to be the case, but according to reality, that does not seem to be the case. 2 Peter 3:9 says “The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.” God sure has a strange way of proving that he doesn’t want anyone to perish. He has allowed hundreds of millions of people to die without hearing the Gospel message, and he refuses to do everything that he can in order to help insure that as many people as possible go to heaven, and as few people as possible go to hell. On the other hand, he is perfectly willing to convince billions of people that he does not exist, or that if he does exist, he is evil, or bi-polar and mentally incompetent.

God’s supposed right to rule is an important and fundamentalist issue. Being loving, good, and moral does not necessarily entitle anyone to rule the universe. Regarding “what He does is right and good, and perfectly just”, if I had the power to heal sick people, I would heal everyone in the world. Would my actions not be as you said “right, good, and perfectly just”? Would you object if I healed everyone in the world? Are Christians doctors not trying to heal everyone who they can?

What evidence do you have that God is active today in tangible ways?