aa5874

That is what I expected you to say.

The NT is NOT a credible source with respect to Judean Christians before the fall of the Temple.

bacht

Sorry, I think I misunderstood the OP.

Do we have any writings that can be identified with Josephus' Essenes? If not can we still say anything about a potential link with Christianity?

Cesc

Indeed.

What I've gathered about the Essenes is that writings were found amongst the DSS that were written by the followers of a movement founded by the so-called Teacher of Righteousness, who are identified as Josephus's "Essenes", a word that probably means "healers". And writings by the Teacher himself, where he speaks about his special insight ('gnosis') into the "Mysteries of God", his disciples, his divine call and his suffering and persecution and such.

A couple of other ancient contemporary authors (Philo and Pliny the Elder) mention groups which have been largely identified as the same "Essenes". Pliny locates them in the desert near the northwestern shore of the Dead Sea, perhaps Qumran. However, the modern Qumran-Essene theory has many problems.
Other authors mentioned other groups which seem to be related to the Essenes or the Essene philosophy or school of thought. The Zealots might be regarded as spiritual brothers to the Essenes, though with a very different social approach to the problems facing Palestine at the time.

Josephus thought the Essenes worshipped the sun becuz they were careful to hide their excrements from 'the rays of the Diety' (War II viii 5 pgr. 148) as they went and prayed before the Light of the World in the morning. Obviously they were not sun-worshippers, but "Children of Light" in a gnostic sense. Pre-elected from the womb and endowed with the 'Spirit of Truth' and therefore walking the path of Truth and originating from a 'fountain of Light' (and ruled by the Prince of Light) as opposed to everyone else walking the path of Falsehood and springing from a 'well of Darkness' (and ruled by the Angel of Darkness). The sun (and its light on the moon) was undoubtedly the symbol and representative in the natural world of 'the Light', that is, the secret "Knowledge of God" or "gnosis". Perhaps, along the lines of the later gnostic Manichaeans, they saw in the sun and the moon's waxing and waning the means of reception and transmission of the inner light or Divine Substance back to the Source.

Epiphanius (4th c.) also talks about a Jewish sect called Ossaeans (recognized as the Essenes) emigrating into Transjordan during the revolt against the Romans. Here they became known later as the Sampsaeans ("people of the sun" probably).

But the Essenes would never commit to writing their secret doctrines, rituals or herbal/medicinal knowledge and such. Their 'knowledge of God' was only passed orally under terrible oaths of secrecy and only to those initiates deemed most trustworthy and spiritually instightful, like any good secret society.

There's lots to say about the possible Essene link with Christianity, particularly in the light of the DSS. But the scrolls are not easily accessible and interpreted. Apart from the purely theological aspects, the organizational structure of the Christian church is an obvious point of comparison. When comparing the two its most often the differences that are emphazised instead of the similarities and this fact alone says alot. If not any direct link between Christianity and Essenism, then at least understanding the Essene theology in its setting is undoubtedly vital to better enlighten the entire context of the origin of Chistianity, theologically as well as socio-politically. Lots of work is waiting to be done in this department if you ask me.

Casper

Does Josephus indicate that it is, or that the essenes do this in a somehow unusual manner, like in a river vs a private bath, or more often than others, or something like that? I'm just curious why Josephus would mention it at all.

bacht

Okay. I was asking because I'm aware that the equation Qumran = Essene is not universally accepted. If the Qumranites were different then their writings are not relevant to possible Essene/Christian links. Maybe the Qumran group was one-of-a-kind? The other name that usually comes up is the Therapeutae, I have no idea if these were Essenes or someone else.

Jewish sectarianism seems to have been the norm rather than the exception in late 2nd temple times. I think you may be flattering the Zealots by ascribing any sophisticated philosophy to them, my impression is that they were basically terrorists (maybe similar to those who murdered the Babylonian governor as described in Jeremiah?)

Cesc

Nobody knows in the first place if the inhabitants/occupiers of Qumran had anything at all to do with the texts found in the caves near-by. There are many good theories of course.

The texts written by the Teacher of Righteousness and his followers are not ascribed to the Essenes because of the Qumran ruins, but because of the theology and organisational instructions found in those scrolls. So whether or not the Essenes were the inhabitants of Qumran, these writings are still ascribed to them.

The Therapeutae were most likely not "Essenes", but there was probably some relationship, or it developed later or something, I dont know.

I agree that they were not necessarily sophisticated in their theology, but Im under the impression that a zealot in trouble could always come and seek refuge in one the Essene 'camps' in Palestine. But I dont know, really. Sure, they were pretty hardcore... Im surprised they didnt whack Jesus the moment he said "pay your taxes to Caesar" !

spamandham

In antiquities 18-5:2, Josephus writes (in regard to John the Baptist):

"For immersion in water, it was clear to him, could not be used for the forgiveness of sins, but as a sanctification of the body, and only if the soul was already thoroughly purified by right actions."

This is the same purpose for ritual bathing as other Jews of the time. In regards to dipping in a river, I'm not aware that Josephus mentions that in regard to John, but I may have overlooked that. Do you have a particular reference in mind?

Zebulon

FWIW, in Jewish custom, the mikvah ritual bath requires flowing water. A river or lake with a natural spring as its source meets the requirement.

It has been a few years, but I remember Robert Eisenman arguing in his controversial James the Brother of Jesus: The Key to Unlocking the Secrets of Early Christianity and the Dead Sea Scrolls (or via: amazon.co.uk) that the Qumran community was dispersed after the Bar Kochba revolt was put down. He suggested that some of them moved east into present-day Iraq, and that the Mandaean sect is descended from them.

Clivedurdle

I had not seen a possible similarity of the views of Ellegard and Allegro before.

Add in a dash of Pagels...

robto

I thought I had heard years ago that there was a match between the chemical fingerprint of the ink on some of the scrolls and the ink found at Qumran. This would seem to settle the matter - at least in terms of ruling out "nothing to do with each other." So, am I wrong, or has this evidence been overturned?